Is it possible to be different without having Asperger's?

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Pokodot
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21 Jan 2010, 3:45 pm

Edit: Thanks for reading, those of you who read the original post. Going to think on my own for a while. Best to all of you.



Last edited by Pokodot on 21 Jan 2010, 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

buryuntime
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21 Jan 2010, 4:14 pm

PDD-NOS is always a possibility. If the child isn't having too many problems I would just wait. Also, another point is that girls on the spectrum behave differently than boys. Sometimes they are better at blending in.



spectrummom
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21 Jan 2010, 4:19 pm

Hello,

The thing about diagnosis is it's just a label. Whether your child turns out to officially have AS or not, it won't change the wonderful child she is.

That said, there were a few things you said that made me think she MIGHT (or might not) have AS. Delayed social skills (compared to others her age), lack of physical coordination (again, compared to others), and hugging (sensory) are the three that stuck out to me. Also, feeling uncomfortable with eye contact is typical for AS kids. We are dealing with a spectrum, and she may be on the very far edge of it (or she may not). Not every AS kid shows every symptom -- my 6 year old is horrible with numbers.

Bottom line is if the adults in her life who are exposed to a wide array of children (teachers, therapists, etc.) think she might have AS it's worth investigating.

I know how hard it is, esp when dealing with something as slippery as AS. My son is at the far edge of the spectrum and I have spent a while now trying to get out of denial because there are days when it's so easy to pretend it's not there or argue myself into believing it's a figment of my imagination.

Good luck,



Callista
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21 Jan 2010, 5:09 pm

She seems like an enchanting little girl!

Autism is a complicated diagnosis, and an extremely broad one. Your daughter may be at the borderline of diagnosis for Asperger's; or she may be one of the many who can only be labeled PDD-NOS because, while they've definitely got autism, it's atypical and doesn't fit into any other possible category.

Here's the bottom line, though: A diagnosis is a tool. It's a way to label someone's differences so that you know how to help them, and people who don't know them as well--like teachers and pediatricians--know roughly where their problems will be.

A diagnosis is a way to get your daughter extra help if she needs it. Maybe she would like to learn how to form relationships with her classmates; or maybe she would benefit from practice with balance and gross-motor skills. Maybe she needs some extra tutoring on where the boundaries are when it comes to interacting with others, especially with her peers, who will be a lot more critical of her than adults are.

If she needs any of those things, then a diagnosis is a tool you can use to help her. If she's doing fine as she is, happy and learning well on her own, then you probably don't need a diagnosis. Expectations do change as people grow; so if she falls behind because her development is different from what is expected of her, she may need a diagnosis later on to access assistance or accommodations that can help her with whatever she's weak on. (And yes, I think PDD-NOS is the most likely category here, if there is a category at all.)

One more thing: I think it would be a good idea to talk to her about it. She seems like she is thoughtful enough and perceptive enough to know whether or not she would like somebody to teach her how to do some of the things she has trouble with. If not knowing how to interact makes her sad, then learning more might make her happier; and she does seem to want to interact. When you strip it of the stereotypes, autism really isn't that scary of a prospect. It's like you said--she's just different; there's nothing wrong with her, whether or not a diagnosis turns out to be useful.


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DW_a_mom
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21 Jan 2010, 5:20 pm

I have an AS son, diagnosed by the school at age 7, and a daughter believed pretty universally to be NT, although she may have a few AS traits.

Here is the thing. With a high functioning child, AS is not going to be all that obvious at age 5, and it could be difficult to diagnose. So much, so much, of what you said about your daughter reminds me of my AS son at that age - and not my NT daughter - but that isn't conclusive, either. The school is seeing something, apparently, and honestly I would prefer them looking for explanations such as AS than labeling it all a behavior problem. Most of us here got the "behavior problem" label long before the AS label and it can be a really destructive road for a child that needs someone to understand she thinks differently and is not choosing to be difficult.

AS is not a pathology; it is a different way of being. And that different way of being is suspected of having some 26 genes, if I recall correctly, as components. Which makes it highly possible that you will see parts of the AS criteria, but not all of them. I never felt that my son matched the diagnostic lists nearly as much as it became clear he held more in common with others considered AS than others considered NT. What I know for sure is that educating him on the assumption he is AS has made everything go miles smoother at school and at home. He, himself, could see by 2nd grade, when we got the school diagnosis, that he was different. He loved having an explanation, and so did we.

My daughter often asks about AS, and why her brother has it, and in a recent conversation I explained the 26 genes and how I have a few, but probably not enough to ever have been diagnosed as AS. Upon which she concluded that was probably her, as well: a few of the genes, but not enough to BE AS. I think a lot of us are that way and, so, you see common AS traits in people who aren't really AS. Which makes it a little murky getting to the right answer, doesn't it?

One thing to know is that the protocol for AS does NOT involve medication. Common supports schools will provide include assistance with transitions, watching out for sensory overload, OT help, pragmatic speech, and social skills. Many AS have writing issues as a co-morbid, and much of my son's IEP centers on that - for us, it was the co-morbid that drove the diagnostic process.

One test that is sometimes used at your daughter's age, although I am guessing that IF she is AS, she is high functioning enough to pass it, is called the Sally test. This involves theory of mind, which is something AS have trouble with. In the test, the tested child watches through a one way mirror as Sally puts an object in a box. Then Sally leaves the room, and someone else moves the object from that box to a different location. The test administrator then asks the child where SALLY will look for the object when she returns. An NT child will say the box, because that is where Sally left the item. An AS child, in theory, will say the new location, because she does not realize that Sally is not party to all the information she is. I wonder if you could do a mini home version of this in a story book and see what your daughter says - that might give you one more clue as where to take this suggestion from the school. AS children have trouble understanding that the rest of the world doesn't see everything they do, know everything they know, want what they want at that moment, and so on ... theory of mind, and it is a very defining characteristic.

Of course, I'm no expert. I'm just a mom. Beyond researching and considering on your own, you should pursue a second opinion. If your daughter is AS, it will benefit your parenting for you to know. She will still be her wonderful, unique self - that will never change.

In answer to your topic question: of course it is possible to be different without having AS. But is that your daughter? I don't know.


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21 Jan 2010, 6:41 pm

Speaking of Theory Of Mind, if a person makes it into adulthood without ever being diagnosed, they would naturally have developed over the years coping skills for managing in the NT world. Ways of behaving and thought processes to make up for their differences, probably without even realizing. You've used up an awful lot of words to reassure yourself that neither you, your daughter or your husband have AS. Would it be so bad if one or all of you were like us?


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Colesmom
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21 Jan 2010, 8:23 pm

Our son when he was five was very loving to other people and seemed to get along with the other kids but one in his class. He seemed like an average kid. I noticed things with him like not looking us in the eyes and his obsession with paper cutting and not being able to throw it away. I have noticed more and more behaviors as he has gotten older and they were written off. We had him in a parochial school and he was bullied for a whole year before he finally showed any sign that something was wrong. We talked to the school and it was to be taken care of. Two weeks into the new school year he came home with bruises and marks and has been a total mess since. The signs I saw were signs of AS and everyone including dh wrote it off. Now we are trying to fix our child's depression, low self esteem, anger issues and hate of everything and everyone. He acts like he doesn't trust us anymore and worries when one of us is not with him. I would look into getting a diagnosis so she can get the help she needs while she is young. We are having to work on years of things instead of working on a problem as it arises. It has been very heartbreaking to me to know that his pain could have been avoided. At least her teacher is seeing something that may be an issue and if it is looked into and you find your daughter is fine then it is worth the trouble.



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21 Jan 2010, 8:54 pm

Yes. Perhaps someone is from another country that has diffrent customs and a diffrent culture.


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mikkyh
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21 Jan 2010, 8:54 pm

Pokodot wrote:
Hello everyone - I wanted to ask the opinion of people in this community about my 5-year-old daughter, particularly those who have a child who is NT as well as one with AS. Briefly, the school psychologist, who met her once and saw a teacher's rating scale, suggested that she might have Asperger's Syndrome. I don't think she does.

I've looked at a couple of diagnostic tools. She meets some criteria, but not others. Mostly, she has trouble socializing - she doesn't know how to enter into a situation where kids are already playing something. She hugs people a lot, I think as a way of compensating for not knowing what to say. So this constitutes a check-box on the tool: developmental delays in socialization. However, when I take her into a new situation outside of school, she is seen by adults as polite and articulate, even charming. When I take her to visit other kids one-on-one, she relates well to the other children - they will play quite naturally together, share ideas and activities without arguing or being too bossy, etc. But of course, her teacher and the psychologist haven't seen this.

My daughter's teacher notes "lack of eye contact" on an assessment sheet, and "lack of understanding of personal space." However, since my daughter is often trying to get out of activities she doesn't want to do (circle time, especially), she is frequently under pressure. When children are being scolded, we often see parents demanding that the child "look at me." I would have guessed that she is feeling scolded, and turns away like any kid would. I do notice that she makes briefer eye contact with me than my son does, but then again, I am often busy, and don't look her in the eyes. So I think she finds it a little weird when I'm suddenly looking her straight in the face, as if I'm about to scold her. Not to mention that to this day my husband prefers not to make too much direct eye contact, as he finds it too intense. My father has similar feelings. Both appear in all respects to have normal brain function. So I suspect this is a case of natural variation, particularly since most of the other diagnostic criteria of AS do not seem to apply.

As for personal space, my daughter has never been very physically affectionate. She is very busy, wanting to read, work on art projects, or help out in the kitchen. She seems to behave quite similarly to the other children in most situations, for example, when getting dressed in the cloakroom. She doesn't get in people's way, talk too loudly, or lean in to people. I can only assume that the "personal space" issue the teacher is seeing is her habit of hugging people - but I don't think it's that far out to think that she has learned that hugging people generally meets with positive feedback, because up until she started kindergarten, it always has. But the psychologist's interpretation is clearly that since other kids don't do it, or don't do it as much, my daughter has developmental delays - at least, given that she doesn't have many other skills at her disposal. The instincts that the other kids have aren't there for her, so she seems to be learning by experimentation what works and what doesn't - more or less the same way I operated as a kid.

The other major criteria in the diagnostic tools I have seen - lack of empathy/understanding of facial expressions, physical awkwardness, obsessive, narrow interests, and concrete language use, don't really seem to apply to my daughter, from what I can see.

Empathy: I can change her attitude about something by making a face. She tries to take care of me when I'm feeling sick. She congratulates people for having success. She writes birthday cards for others. She sometimes wants to hurt others, when she is angry or feeling attacked (there is a boy at school who is physically aggressive toward her and encourages her to "do bad things"). She got very upset at the thought that I missed her when I was away for a while, because she didn't want me to be sad. She can describe both her own feelings and those of others with clarity and depth.

Physical activity: My daughter can throw and kick balls, though not with the adeptness I've seen in some other kids. On the other hand, she can climb very well, and dance. She can strike an elegant pose for a camera. She can write clearly and has been able to draw human faces and figures since before she was 3. She does have the impulse to move things around with her feet when she's eating or waiting for something. However, my husband showed the same behaviour as a child, and there is no reason to believe he is on the autism spectrum. I remember being fidgety myself. In fact, it seems like a stereotypical feature of children's physical behaviour that they often can't sit still. So I'm not inclined to view this kind of behaviour as unusual. However, her teacher seemed to be concerned that she saw my daughter spinning around on the playground, and shovelling sand into a garbage can. I had thought that just enjoying moving around was normal kid behaviour - I know I spent time spinning in circles as a kid, and so did my friends. And since there is only one small climbing gym on the playground, and no sand toys, I'm not sure what it is they're expecting her to do, seeing as she has difficulties approaching her peers.

Interests: My daughter has a wide range of interests, mostly in facts, but also in characters and stories. She does accumulate a lot of information, so maybe this is a flag. Again, my husband showed the same tendency, and so did I, to a certain degree. In any case, I wouldn't call her interests obsessive, narrow, or overly concrete. She shows no particular affinity for numbers, though she has math skills that are more advanced than those of her peers. She was described by the psychologist as "rigid" and "non-spontaneous" because she didn't want to move on to a new activity before she finished what she was doing. But on the other hand, she is always coming up with new projects that she wants to do and attempting to carry them out right away. I find I can usually get her to stop what she is doing as long as I promise that she'll have the chance to finish it later. Despite wanting to know what is planned for the day (as did my husband as a child), my daughter dislikes rigid routines, and wants the chance to follow her interests as they arise. So I don't think that the "need for routine" diagnostic really applies here, either.

Language: As for her language use, I can't say it strikes me as odd in any way. I can see how others might find it odd, though, since she sometimes makes reference to things she's read in books, assuming that the listener has read the same thing. Just as often, however, she will review the context of something she found funny before she gets to the punch line. She doesn't repeat herself when she's telling me about something she's thinking about, but she does get a little bit stuck on things that upset her sometimes - for example, one time she wouldn't stop trying to get me to change my mind about a decision. She does sometimes speak a little more hesitantly with unfamiliar people, but she seems alert to the cues we give as parents regarding whether someone is to be trusted - so if we take her to the home of a friend and act relaxed, she is much more at ease and natural with the adults there than she is in institutional environments when new people arrive (e.g., in community activity centres).

To me, my daughter lacks some of the social instincts that the kids around her have, but so did I as a kid, as well as my husband, and many functional adults we know today. I recall being physically affectionate (though with the boys, not with the girls, like my daughter is), even though I was sometimes rejected, and having trouble understanding how to talk to other kids (they didn't seem to understand what I said). Like her father, my daughter doesn't like group activities (unless they are doing something she enjoys, such as art) and lacks respect for authority until the authority figure has either shown affection or assigned adequate consequences to misbehaviour.

So she represents a behavioural challenge - there's no doubt about that. But I worry that a misdiagnosis of a true neurological disorder would have a very negative impact on a "normal" child. The school psychologist told me flat out (as I said, based on a single meeting and one rating scale) that my daughter will never grow out of her social difficulties, and that interventions are required - that is, there is something seriously wrong with her because she doesn't want to sit quietly and repeat rote lessons with the other kids concerning things she learned months or even years ago (it's a French immersion school, and my daughter is already basically bilingual while the other kids are just starting out in French), and because, like me and my husband, she relates better to adults than to other kids her own age. I'm upset because the school and psychologist seem determined to pathologize my daughter, despite the fact that they are sitting across from two ostensibly neurotypical adults who showed the same traits as kids.

Sorry for the long post - I just wanted to see what people's reactions are. How can social awkwardness be distinguished from Asperger's? And if it can't be, what does it say about Asperger's as a syndrome? I must admit I am sympathetic to the idea that Asperger's be viewed as a difference rather than a disease - I also suspect that it does no justice to people who have Asperger's if we throw everyone who deviates from the norm into that category.

Thanks for reading.


My psychologist says that there's a little autism in everyone. So. Um. I don't know what point I'm making there. But I've made it. So. Yeah. :roll:


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