unhijack

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Attempting to un-hijack aziaeve's thread:

Uh...

okay, I've read this four times now, and DW, I...am just not seeing where this explosion is coming from. I'm going to try to lay out, as clearly as I can, how things look from here.

Nobody is asking you to join in any rants.
Nobody is asking you to say your dad was abusive. Or maybe someone did, on that thread -- like I said, I haven't read every post. But I am certainly not asking you to say that, and I don't believe I ever did. Obviously he wasn't. You've said over and over how kind etc. he was.

What I object to is the cycle I did see repeatedly in that "parents with asperger's" thread, and which came in again in aziaeve's thread: Person shows up saying "oh my god, this sounds like my horrible parent", and the posts immediately following say, "It was not and never has been asperger's, we're sorry your parent was horrible but it must've been for totally other reasons, asperger's is innocent, your parent was nuts/evil/bad/a huge jerk but you have no beef with asperger's discussion closed."

Even though the behaviors the person is describing sound very much like asperger's. That's a kind of propaganda I can't get next to, and I wish it would stop. I don't see that it's helpful to sweep those sorts of conversations out the door, and shut and bolt the door behind them. For those who can approach them, I can actually see them being quite helpful: here's what bad parenting with Aspergers looks like and why it's harmful, be aware and don't do this. But beyond that, I think it's entirely legitimate for people to talk about these things if they're suffering, particularly when they've recently figured out what's up. I do not think this is bigotry, as ASDmommy seems to think.

Above, you say your dad was a pretty good dad, "I assume because he had no co-morbids". But why make that assumption? You've got n=1. If asperger's is not one-size-fits-all, and a great deal of this forum is devoted to that very idea, why is it a piece of dogma that this is impossible: In some people, and in some families, asperger's turns out to be Really Not A Good Thing for the kids (or spouse)? This seems to me no more reasonable than the idea that meltdowns, by definition, cannot be abusive because they're not intended as abuse.

In other words, what I was objecting to in your response to aziaeve was the immediate pointer to the idea that damaging parents with AS actually have some other problem. Maybe true in aziaeve's dad's case; maybe not; but how can you, DW, know? Why suggest immediately that "damaging parent with AS"== "parent who had other problem"?

I don't know what you're talking about when you say I seem split. If you're talking about my dad -- you know, I think I've said repeatedly that he's not a mean guy, not a bad guy, but he does tremendous and unrelenting damage with his total inability to take in any reality that's not his own, the self-centeredness, the rages, the defensiveness, the neglect, and so on. I also said a while back that there just wasn't anything else to do, so I don't talk to him anymore. I worry about him, sure -- he's getting on -- but even his wife (who's currently living apart from him) tells me stay away, he can't be good for me or my daughter. So okay. Was there something in there you were thinking of?

I don't think I made any suggestion whatsoever that you're a bad mother or that your son's unaffectionate. Neither of those things come across at all in your posts. I was talking about me and my daughter. Do I believe it's possible that my being me is hard on her? Sure. She's an open kid, but she's also very polite, and there are things she won't say if she's decided it'd be hurtful. So I expect there's a fair amount in there that I'll never be privy to, and some of it only later, in digest form. She's also a kid, and hasn't yet got language for all these things. Nor do I think she'll be able to sort effects of "exhausted single mom who works a lot and hasn't any help" from "who mom is" for quite a while. But do I believe it's possible that there are ASish things about me that are Decidedly Not Good For Her, sure.

As for "what do you need from us"...eh, I didn't know that I'd approached a collective as a supplicant.

See, I don't think I said her father had other problems. I am pretty sure I said that I don't know if he did, and it is worth looking into. As it is. When someone is trying to understand their parent, scapegoating into ASD IF that is not the whole of the problem doesn't exactly get them the answer they are desperately looking for.

Most people with ASD have co-morbids, which is why so much will feel very familiar to you. But we are already seeing in the next generation how many of the issues people with ASD brought into adulthood were less from the ASD than from not having anyone understanding it and teaching them appropriately. The children you and I are raising often present in unexpected ways (being affectionate, for example) because they have faced different shaping social forces, are more likely to have their co-morbids separately treated, and have had someone explains the gaps in their instinctive thinking without leaving them to flail around and find false conclusions on their own.

There is nothing wrong with asking people to look at a whole picture or to get them to see things positively. You keep insisting that I am not letting people see reality but I strongly disagree. Yes, SOME posters discount the negatives that may be born from ASD, but I have always tried NOT to. Do I want to provide context? YES. People need to see context in order to sort things out. You can't help someone by feeding their bitterness, and ultimately my goal is to help the person I am writing to. Do I also have to be mindful of the needs of any ASD readers that may stumble in? YES, I do. But while it will affect my phrasing, I've tried to never let it stop me from saying what needs to be said. There is no point in helping person A if you do damage to person B, but that does not mean I can't try to navigate the fine lines and still help person A.

You have to remember that it is impossible on a public forum to isolate any conversation to the needs of just the one person. While they are primary, you have to be careful of who else might be reading. And, in that context, address as many tangents as possible.

But, side note, don't expect me to make sense right now. I'm losing my mind because of stuff going on IRL and maybe it is showing in my posts. I am happy to delete what I wrote to you if it was not suitable. I have thoughts I want to share with you but I will have to do it when I'm more centered and more accurate in my instincts.

I actually was not remembering the details involved with your father at all, but maybe the answer to what I've sensed is in here:

The nature of that situation is naturally conflicted. You are going to have opposing feelings about him. About everything. Maybe that is the split I sensed. In which case, there is no answer for it and nothing to be done. And it does explain things. Sorry for not remembering that element of your situation.

T - I really like your thinking and approach.

Yes - AS absolutely affect your parenting and your ability to empathise and respond to your kids and it WILL have an effect on them. It can have less of a negative effect if people are aware of deficits and play to their strengths.

And the truth is that being an exhausted single mom with no support will also have an effect. Negative effects because of the inability to recharge and have different parenting approaches and the lack of modelling a healthy adult relationship. Positive because hopefully your daughter will see that you've worked really hard for her and sacrificed and did for her - and being a positive role model of working through adversity and self-reliance.

I'm NT, but I have deficits which affect my parenting. Do I always overcome them - no, I don't. Am I aware of all my deficits? No. (Nor am I probably aware of all my strengths) But the more aware I am of them the better chance I have of compensating and improving my parenting.

I do not agree, or at least I quibble with your terminology depending on what was meant. Even Baron-Cohen acknowledges that aspies are not deficient in empathy. Aspies can have issues with affective empathy (showing it in expected/appropriate ways)

I agree that if you express empathy in a way that your kids won't understand, that this is a problem, and honestly it does work the other way, too. As often as my dad had issues with this, my NT mom was worse. I am not saying my dad had great theory of mind, but he did learn quite a bit, probably due to the nature of his job, which did not quite suit an aspie temperament.

My mom was/is very rigid about her thinking. She assumed I cared about things that I did not---not all of them social NT things, either---she really did/does assume that there are things people universally think b/c that was how it worked in the microcosm she grew up in.

She is even worse now that she is getting on in years. I deal with this on a regular basis, only now she asks the same lack of theory of mind questions repeatedly due to the fact that she forgot she asked them just two minutes in the past. Even though I am an adult, now, it feels hurtful that she never ever took the time to understand me. So I understand why kids of aspie parents who lack this ability are upset, but I know it is not something limited to aspie parents because I experienced it with my very NT mom.

That is quite the blanket statement. I agree with ASDMommyASDKid, the idea that Aspies have difficulty with empathy is not a foregone conclusion. I have seen just as much IRL evidence in refute of the idea as I have in favor of it. But even aside from that...you appear to be starting from the assumption that AS will "absolutely" negatively affect your parenting, and that the effect WILL be negative. That is a biased assumption that cannot be generalized to everyone. I can think of one Aspie I know in particular who is arguably a better parent because of his AS.

It would be fair to say "AS can affect your parenting and if it affects your ability to empathize and respond to your kids, it will have an effect on them." It is not fair to say what you said.

And to be honest, I don't think it is fair for you to make such a blanket statement, seeing as how you are NT. You may not mean it to, but it reeks of an underlying sense of superiority and judgment. I don't see a problem with sharing your feelings based on your personal experiences, but to assume that your experience typifies that of all people with AS spouses or parents kind of begs people to disagree, ykwim?

I didn't participate in the other thread because those kinds of threads tend to bring out the worst in me. But I do get a feeling of apprehension every time I come across people who blame the entirety of someone's bad behavior on AS. Some AS people are gentle and kind. Some are self absorbed and cruel. I find those differences to be unrelated to AS in specific and more related to temperament, or a combination of temperament + AS. When people "blame it all on AS" you put those gentle, kind souls at a severe disadvantage because you propagate a harmful stereotype that may fit some, but definitely does not fit all.

Wow... this illustrates exactly what Tarantella was saying ... "couldn't possibly be AS".

Sorry but I stand by what I say. Theory of mind, displaying empathy, etc. etc. are important attributes in relationships, and perhaps even more necessary in parenting. Lack of it will affect parenting negatively.

I do notice that no one disputed me saying that her single parenthood was detrimental.

Am I saying Aspies are automatically the worst parents? No, not at all. Or even necessarily bad parents.

I suffer from clinical depression. Does this affect my parenting? Yes. And negatively. Am I the worst parent in the world? No, not by a long shot. I'm not abusive, I'm not neglectful even when I'm at my lowest ebb. Would I be a better parent without it? Yes.

My issue is with the word "absolutely" and with the fact that you misrepresented the issue of empathy. "Absolutely" implies black and white thinking. I left Adamantium to address the comment on his post about his father on the other recent parenting thread because I felt it was not my place to comment, but you might want to look at your immediate reaction. You immediately pulled out all the negativity and addressed it, ignoring all the positive things he posted. So, you clearly have a bias in that way.


Edited to add this link to the thread with Elkclan's comment: http://www.wrongplanet.net/posts255806-start15.html

I really don't care how often some of you equate anything positive (or not completely negative) about autism with saying one is saying, "It could not possibly be AS." I stand by what I am saying that blanket, blind negativity is incorrect. Including your own struggles with depression is, I guess, an attempt to be even-handed, but I still do not agree with your points.

Every parent is a suboptimal parent. There is no such thing as an optimal parent. So if you feel like your need to recharge is negatively impacting your parenting, maybe you are too hard on yourself. People who work long hours parenting are impacted. Having a bad day can impact it. So what? No one is perfect.

I stand by my objection to the implication that somehow, every single AS parent is somehow a worse parent than anyone else who struggles with something (Because, yes, everyone does.)

Also my apologies to the single-parents on here, because yes, I should have defended them, too. Every parent has some obstacle between them and parenting Nirvanah, and that is OK. People have to spend time making an income, have time to themselves, etc. and no one should feel bad about any of those things.

Edited as noted in the body of the post and for illiteracy on my part.

Last edited by ASDMommyASDKid on 10 Apr 2014, 9:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

My mom (NT) was very similar. She had an opinion about everything, and woe to you if your opinion was different. I remember her insulting my haircut when I was 25, even though I had intentionally NOT mentioned it or asked for her thoughts about it. It wasn't even a strange hairdo - it was just a bob.
She has dementia, and she also went through a phase of asking the same (sometimes rude) question over and over. She kept asking me about my "work" all the time. I am an at-home mom, something my parents do not think is a legitimate choice. So I had to keep telling her that, and watching her give me a disapproving look over and over.
Nowadays, she does not ask me questions because she doesn't know who I am anymore. She spends all her time talking to herself in her bedroom mirror, thinking it's another person. The other day I heard her call herself a "dirty old hag" which was sad and very funny at the same time.

Maybe our moms are related.

Mine has dementia and she is a loose cannon, right now. The thing is, it is not like she is a different person. Her less savory traits are just worse.

To echo your haircut story, my brother went through a long-haired phase in his youth. (I thought it looked cool.) Anyway, my mom was unrelenting in her harassment of him. She went so far as to say he was "ugly" like that. Nice, huh? That is how she was to me, too. My dad could not care less about any of that kind of thing. He only cared about things that he thought were "slu*ty" looking. (My words, not his--I just could not capture the general sentiment better.)

He wasn't mean about it; he would just try to prohibit things like make up and earrings if he noticed them. My parents were both older, so it wasn't the most modern perspective. My mom was grateful when I wanted to dress like the other girls. Luckily, my dad really didn't notice things like makeup, anyway, it wasn't hard to deal with him. The AS came in handy on one level because even though it made him rigid about things his mom probably told him ages ago, he did not pay attention to what I was wearing.

Looking back on it, it was probably good I had both parents to balance each other out.

Edited to add: If I had a choice of one parent over the other, I would have chosen my AS dad over my NT mom. At least my dad did not care if I conformed or not. I would rather have acceptance and understanding of who I was than a parent who constantly tried to remake me into something else.

Edited again to add: Note this is an anecdotal thing and not a generalization about all NT parents. See what I did there? You can tell an anecdote without slandering an entire group of people.

Last edited by ASDMommyASDKid on 10 Apr 2014, 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

This made me actually lol, for real. I keep reading articles about dementia that say those affected become totally different people. This has not been the case for my mom at all. She simply can't keep up a social façade anymore. Friends and family who don't know her as well might think her nature has changed, but in some ways she's just become more herself.



What my mom actually said to me was, "I see you got a haircut. (sigh) I hope you'll grow out of that." So she managed to insult not only my hair, but my overall maturity as well. Mom was great at casually throwing out comments that hurt on many levels. And again, it was NOT a weird haircut.
One year she got me a birthday card that had printed in it something like "I may not always understand or agree with you, but I'll always love you." I was like, WTF?? It was the kind of card you'd buy if your daughter was incarcerated or something.

My dad is also probably ASD. He is a very quiet guy, always just went along with whatever mom told him to do/say/think. I was shocked to find out a few years back that he once had his IQ tested (in the military) and it's 135. Mom always treated him like some kind of half-wit. He is having a hard time making decisions on his own now that she's almost completely loopy.
But he is a super, super nice guy. I can't say he was a very involved parent when I was growing up, but none of my friends' fathers were involved in their lives, either. I think it may be a socio-economic/geographical thing. Even today, my son's school prefers to deal with me rather than my husband, even though they have contact info. for both of us.

^^^^This. Yes, absolutely.




I made the mistake of telling my mom the names we picked out for my son before he was born. I did not want to go through 9 months of pregnancy with no surprises so we opted out of knowing the gender, so I had two names one for each. Upon hearing them she made it a point of saying, "Yuck! I guess I hope it's a boy." The girl name was unusual, but still that was really rude to say. Also, she said it multiple times during my pregnancy as well as floating a name she wanted, that she "didn't get to use" as an alternate girl name.



The sad thing is, she probably thought she was being nice, as opposed to passive-aggressive. My mom was the queen of passive-aggression.





My mom acted demure and quiet around other people, and did not speak up to my dad often. My brother and I bore the brunt of her opinions, though, b/c we were children. My parents were older parents and had very traditional gender roles. I will say that ironically the AS made my dad probably less stand-offish than the cultural norm he was raised with, due to his inability to understand that particular rule.

^^ All of this.

I find it interesting that when I read Adamantium's post, my first thought was "what a remarkable tribute to his father." I was seriously touched. It was beautiful.

I also find it interesting that there was not a retraction of the word "absolutely." I have, on occasion, found myself speaking in such...eh hem...absolute...terms, more to emphasize my point than because I literally believed it. In those cases, I will quickly retract when it is pointed out to me, because of course very few things in life are that black-and-white and total. Even my shadowy brain is aware of that.

And lastly,



Wow.

I didn't say it couldn't possibly be AS. Of course it is possible it is AS. You really seem to read what you want to read into other people's statements.

But in my experience whether or not someone is a selfish a$$ is generally mostly related to their temperament and overall personality. IOW, I think the person would be just as big of an a$$ if you took AS out of the picture. While many on the spectrum may have difficulty with ToM and social reciprocity, a good number that I have known over the years work very hard to overcome this and take extra steps in their every day lives to compensate for the things that do not come naturally to them. The fact that your view appears to hold little room for acknowledging these people is really sad.

Plus, I really can't believe that you are coming to a forum that is full of parents on the spectrum and basically telling us that we are doomed from the start to be selfish, thoughtless parents who are absolutely going to negatively impact our kids.

Wow.

InThisTogether, elkclan is from aspartners. I wanted us to be friends with them and understand and I thought we all could work together in universal harmony. I thought they had data to contribute. Just like them there is no reasoning with elkclan as much as it pains me to say.

Ah, that makes sense, then.

'Nuff said.