Should I talk with his mother?

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Here's the situation:

We have a family down the road with two sons -- one is in 6th grade, smart as a whip and a really fun, all-boy type of kid. He is my 13 year old son's friend, and they get along great. I love having this kid over because he doesn't play video games all day. He and my son go outside, go exploring on trails near our home (very closeby -- nothing to worry about -- they never leave for long) or just discovering new things to do outside. The other son is in 8th grade with my son, skipped a grade early in elementary school, is extremely bright, smaller than the other kids, and socially is really not doing well. He used to hang out with his brother and my son, but it never worked very well. He isn't very nice to my son. He needs to control every situation. He only likes to play video games. He hates his brother. His brother doesn't like him too much either, and I think that's why the brother DOESN'T like to play video games. He wants to be the complete opposite of his brother. The older brother no longer comes over (even though he's invited) because he wants to stay home in his controlled environment and play video games.

So, at school, this 8th grade brother is trying to prevent my son from having lunch at his table, which also includes five other friends of my son's. He's been invited to join this table by another guy, and tried it for a few weeks. But this neighbor kid either tried to overtly discourage him from sitting there, saying there's not enough room, or by telling my son what he can or cannot say, or by writing rules down on a piece of paper and handing it to him. Strange stuff. My kid tends to be quiet and not too inclined towards confrontation, and of course this stuff inhibits him. He has gone back to eating lunch at his old table where he feels comfortable. My son has stood up for himself, and told this kid to calm down, or cut it out, but this kid just will not stop.

I love this kid's mother, and I love this kid's little brother. I've often thought I should ask the mother if my son has done anything to offend the older brother [who knows what my son may have done to justify this behavior -- I'm not beyond knowing that my kids can make mistakes sometimes}, just to get a conversation started. I too want to avoid confrontation -- but -- this kid is preventing my kid from extending himself socially. ALSO, this kid (who is not diagnosed, but fits the spectrum so well that even his parents have wondered) really could use some social help. I don't think that he knows he is being unkind -- I just think that he feels that he needs to control EVERY situation. It would really help HIM to learn that he cannot do that. But I don't know how the mother would handle the situation. As wonderful a woman as she is, she loves how academically advanced this boy is, and doesn't see how socially inept he is. She actually thinks that the younger boy has problems -- when in reality, he is more typical.

I would love to hear what your advice would be in this situation, or if you as parents (or as children) have handled this situation yourself.

Maybe bringing it up the way you specified-- by asking if there's something that happened to sour the relationship would be a good idea. As for telling her her kid may be AS, that might not be the way to go per se- some folks are pretty defensive about their kids to begin with. It does sound like he's being a bit of a bully to your son, and Im glad to hear he just removed himself from him rather than putting up with it- good choice for sure!

First of all - I really wish - no matter how well intentioned a person may be - that people would stop trying to 'diagnose' other people's children. That's just weird and creepy that someone would spend thaaattt much time preoccupied with figuring out someone else's child.

That said - the best thing you can do is talk to the kid's Mom - you're firends. I'm sure you talk about a lot of things, the kids included.

There's a really good possibility that the two brothers just have some sibling competetion issues. Very common, especially with boys. No AS or mental dysfunction involved at all.

My daughter is having the same problem with two girls/fraternal twins at her school. One was her friend and she made friends with he sister too. Now the one that was her friend first is shunning Steph and doing the same thing at the lunch table. My daughter is AS - but neither of these other two girls are. After hearing about this little school thing for a couple of weeks - I called the parents of the two girls just to see what was going on there. They assured me it was their daughter and that the girls are having some major problems between them at the moment - competition. Nothing really to do with Steph, but the problems with one another are seeping out at school. Little ways to make each other miserable.

Unfortunately - it still hurts/bothers my child - but knowing this, I can explain it to her and she knows it really isn't her problem or her fault. The stuff is still going on - but Steph comes home and says 'so&so is soooo weird'.... instead of wondering if she's the one who's weird.

Nothing helps a young man more socially than having his Mom go to bat for him against a bully.


So the neighbor kid writes down lunch table rules and makes everybody follow them? Yikes, that kids' a regular Sheldon Cooper - he might be dangerous!

Willard has a good point. You can't go to bat for an eigth grade child, against another child, without making it worse. Can you talk to the mother mom to mom? Sure. But she cannot ACT on the conversation except in the most subtle of ways, and cannot let her child know you talked. This would have to be clear before digging into it. An indirect approach might work, keeping everything you say carefully chosen so that if the conversation is shared, her child cannot use it against yours.

I'm in a similar situation myself, right now, and still going back and worth on what to say and how much to say. Tough line to walk.

Just wanted to point out that the OP stated that she 'loves' the Mom of the other two boys. Obviously she KNOWS this woman. (I'm guessing that - like me - she's made it a point to know the parents of the kids her children are friends with.)

If this were happening with some random boy - that she doesn't know and doesn't have parental contact with - I can se how it might cause more trouble for her son. However - this doesn't seem to be the case. I'm betting this other Mom likes the OP's son also and would be helpful without letting on to her sons that they spoke.

All that is true in my case, as well, but my son has been clear: if I talk to his friend's mom about the things going on, things will be worse for my son. Her and I talk all the time, and we have talked about the situation very generally, but I cannot tell her, for instance, that her child has actually now punched mine at school (WHERE were the teachers?!) or the situation will become much, much worse. There is a very fine line here, no matter how close the families are. We're talking middle school boys, and there is a social code involved.

UUmmmm - treating your son in a rude manner is totally different than hitting him. Wow - I'd be extremely upset about that.

Schools have rules - parents have rules, it seems that kids have a set of rules too... It's hard to navigate all of them without stepping on anyone's toes.

Bottom line is - the boy who is getting physically violent needs to be held responsible and accountable for his actions. If he gets away with it now - it'll only become worse. He will take advantage of your son (for you, his parents and the school) not doing anything about it.

You have a choice to make. You can go to his Mother and tell her. This will probably result in the kid calling your son a cry-baby. You can go to the school, this will probably result in your son being called a cry-baby PLUS his Mom being upset that you didn't bring it to her to let her handle it. Could possibly result in your son 'losing' both brothers. (Adults are strange and allow their own anger to interfere with their kids' friendships.) Or you can tell your son to 'call him out'... That means your son will have to stand up for himself - preferably in front of the other people at the table. Demand the other boy to TELL him what his problem is and why he feels the need to be such a butthead. He also must TELL this kid that he will NEVER put his hands on him again or hit him. And he has to mean it. The kid is a bully and your son is his target. No parent ever wants their kid to get beat up - but our kids do need to stand up and defend themselves when all other options have been attempted. Both of my kids know that they are NEVER to be mean - pick on or hit anyone else. But they also know that I will back them up 100% if they have to defend themselves. My son is younger than yours and he finally got mad enough that he had to do something - He told his bully: "You may be able to beat me up - but you will NEVER want to fight with me again." The kid left him alone after that. Guess he figured Ty wasn't that good a target. As for the school - I'd rather see my kid suspended for a few days for defending himself than to think he was going to school each day with the prospect of being bullied or hit. Not an easy choice - but most of the really important ones are never easy.

In my son's case, and I don't want to get too far into it because I don't want to hijack the thread, the problem is that boy currently being a bully was his best friend until 3 weeks ago, and is likely to be his best friend again once his temper has cooled down. In so many ways these two kids need each other, but I don't want it to become a middle school boys equivalent of an abusive marriage, with my son being the abused one. Both families have loved this friendship, because our kids finally had someone who shared their interests, and both us moms work part time and enjoyed the shared child care. The boy being a bully seems to currently believe he can get by without my son, but he's going to figure out eventually that no one else shares his interests at that level. But we can't force that realization upon him, and my son seems to be honestly worried about his physical safety until then. There are other kids around who have the will and ability to interfere, my son does have friends and allies, and that is the angle we are relying on for the short term, while keeping out a close eye to see how it shapes up. Obviously, the other boy has far deeper issues than we had ever been aware of, and it doesn't really surprise me (he's "different" and somewhat physically disabled in a very visual way), but they also aren't for me to solve. I will be seeing his mom on an unscheduled basis, and will see how far I can get interferring without it being obvious I am interferring.

If this was just a bully my son had no interest in, he'd have reported it. As it is, he IS verbally standing up for himself, as are other kids, but the incident yesterday makes him wonder if that was a good strategy.

My son wants to make his own choices and be in control of how it gets resolved. He talks to me constantly about it, and hasn't ruled out having me interfere, but isn't ready for me to take that step yet. He is at an age where I have to respect his choices. We talk, I advise, but the choices are his. It is really important to him that I allow him that control.

To the original poster: I don't think it could do any harm to talk to the mother of the other boys. However, I do think it might be counterproductive to do so with the objective of trying to get her to do something about it. If anything, if you're initiating the conversation, it would be better for you to be open to her suggestions for handling your boy differently.

To me, the lunch table example mostly just illustrates how pathological social relationships are at that age. I would not view it as "preventing your son from extending himself socially". In fact, one of the social skills your son will eventually have to develop is exactly how to handle this kind of behavior on the part of others, and simply avoiding it is not that bad a solution.

She may know more about her son's problems than you do. Sometimes, more typical people are the ones that have more problems.

Am I mistaken in thinking that the bully kid YOU are talking about is the kid from the 'drunk' family?

If so - THAT is a situation that you should take to the school. If his parents aren't there to be real parents and the kid is acting out, he probably needs some sort of help. The school would be the first option for getting him that help.

Both my kids are really funky about being tattletales... When it comes to other kids - they tell on eachother allllll the time here at home. LOL! My kids do tend to tell me everything - even about the other kids at school. Sometimes it's a good thing to talk about because it's opened up conversations about when you have to 'tell on' one of your friends. Those time are when the friend is doing something that could harm themselves or someone else. (Taking drugs, drinking, playing with weapons, talking about suicide... Different scenarios can be discussed and an open dialogue really helps both you and the kid/s have a clear understanding about stuff like that.) The behavior of the kid your son know should be rasing some red flags. Maybe his parents don't know - or simply don't care. The school has sooo many kids it's hard to single out one who may be having difficulty until the behavior becomes really obnoxious or out of control. You can talk to the school and ask that they not bring you or your son up - that they simply evaluate the bully-kid and address his behavior. Your son probably isn't the only one he picks on.

Your son needs to understand that if this kid makes him fell bad - he doesn't need to hang around with him. All he has to do is say - 'Hey you're being a jerk and I don't need to deal with that. When you decide to stop being a jerk - I'll be happy to be your friend.' That's it.

Don't attach so much of your own emotonal angst to your son. What bothers you may not necessarily bother him as profoundly.

Thanks for all of your comments -- they've brought up issues that I HAVE thought of, and many things that I hadn't thought of.

DW_a_mom, go ahead and hi-jack the thread. I think your son's situation is more important than my son's anyway. I really don't know what I would do in your situation. I sure wouldn't like any kid hitting my son, but it's super complicated when you KNOW the boy well, and they've been friends in the past. Man, that's a tough one.

psychohist, I think you are right -- I can talk to the mother, but I shouldn't expect anything to "happen" as a result of that talk. And since I want results, there's no point in talking with her. I go through this, listening to my son's complaints about this kid, and feeling like I should DO something, and then I realize -- there's no point. As has been said, if I try to DO something, it's ridiculous to be going to bat for an eighth grader, and the Mom won't be happy to hear any of this, and she won't feel inclined to change anything, AND definitely, the boy that's acting like a bully will probably just ratchet up the bullying. This is definitely a no-win situation. But the plus side, as psychohist mentioned, is that my son will be forced to learn how to handle difficult situations like this. It's just a right of passage.

oncebitten is right -- this is probably a sibling rivalry thing that my son just happens to be in the middle of.

And Willard -- this totally cracked me up:

SO TRUE. Absolutely put me in my place! AND, we do call this kid Sheldon [in our house] -- he totally fits that character, except about half as pleasant!

As things stood today -- aforementioned bully didn't sit at his usual table -- he went elsewhere, and my son and his other friends (who have also been told to not sit at this table by this kid) enjoyed a bully-free lunch at a big table FULL of friends. Don't know if this will continue, but it was nice while it lasted.

Mistaken. That wasn't my situation.

The kids around my son seem to be pitching in to help my son and his former friend peacefully go their separate ways if that is what they want to do. My son is feeling a lot more optimistic about his future social group, even if he still very much misses the former friend.

There are so many kids my son considers acquaintances that will go to bat for him if the chips are down ... it is interesting to see that system kick in. In that respect, he is very, VERY fortunate, and I have to extend gratitude to his former elementary school and the families from his age group there for that, I think. A really unique group of kids.

I hope things work out for your son, too, Schlepp. We aren't at the end, but I think it's turned.

A slight update --

The younger boy that's a friend of my son's fell and hit his head hard at the end of last week, and ended up with a slight concussion, so he's been home from school for the last few days. This morning his mother called me, and told me all about it -- poor kid can't do schoolwork, watch tv, play video games, etc. He's bored to tears (I'm not surprised -- he's a really sharp kid). His Mom called partially to just tell me about the concussion and why he hasn't been at the bus stop, but she also mentioned that it might be nice if my son came over just to talk with her younger son, just to give him a break in his day [which my son would be more than happy to do].

It's just an interesting juxtaposition -- this Mom recognizes what a good relationship her younger son has with my guy, but she has no idea what a negative effect her older son has on my son. And I need to keep my mouth shut about it.

New update --

This experience with my son and his problematic lunch table has really taught me a lot, and NOT in the way that I expected at all.

The kid that lives down the street continued to try and give my son a hard time. I decided to not say anything to his mother, but it still really bugged me. But my son took care of things -- he yelled at this kid when the kid was being particularly difficult, and then the rest of the time, he just kept coming to the table and didn't let anybody dissuade him from coming. Talk about determined ! !! I never thought that just coming back to the table no matter what would have helped the situation, but apparently it did. So now he has TWO tables where he feels comfortable at lunch.

This really teaches me to just shut up and let things play out naturally.

LOL, as they get older, we need this one more and more ... but it is SOOOOO hard to!