grandmother of possible aspie

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My grandson is a remarkable just-turned 2-year old. He seems impressive to people because of his recitation of numbers or letters, simple addition skills, and word recognition. I don't know if ZZ is actually gifted. His early training may just have given him, as soon as he could say a few words, specific series of words to fixate on - like reciting numbers, lining up his number or letter sets for hours on end. Nothing gets his attention unless it is in his narrow range of things he fixates on. He doesn't like new things introduced. He fits pretty much all the indicators, like talking to himself for hours as he plays alone, completely oblivious to his surroundings, food/eating issues, eye-contact avoidance - but I do wonder if he avoids eye-contact in an attempt to get his parents to stop the constant teaching/learning exercises. He lacks sharing activity which is usual at this age for neuro-typical children. He has repetitive movements of his body in addition to the repetitive strings of words or numbers - and many other things I've read about AS - they seem all present with ZZ. The social disconnect he exhibits concerns me. While he seems happiest occupying and talking by himself for hours and hours, there are times he seems lonely to me but doesn't understand what it is he needs (social interaction) or how to ask for it.

His parents think ZZ's ability with numbers and reading words of 4-6 letters is normal for all children if they got early training like they gave ZZ. I should add that ZZ just turned 2 years old about 3 weeks ago and has been doing simple reading, counting (to 11 or 100 or a thousand, will recognize and say out loud a new number combination, even up to the tens of thousands), simple addition, some subtraction, for many months.

I'm not altogether sure this is AS. It is possible that all his AS-like behaviors and social avoidance is a self-protective response to his parents constant teaching. The few weeks I've been in the home, I've encouraged more unstructured playtime with no number, letter, math and reading exercises. In the last few days, he seems more joyful and has been making better eye contact. Then, I wonder if this is normal with AS because he has gotten used to me being in the home and has become comfortable with me. We do play a lot - but it is all under his control and usually involves numbers. It's either go along with his lead or get no social time with him.

So - you see - I'm unsure and confused. I ordered some books from Amazon - titles I found in the discussion of recommended books here on WrongPlanet. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. And please forgive me for un-intended insensitivity. I'm in new ground here and may need cluing-in. Thanks, WowLi

I have similar uncertainties of my own. My oldest grandson can be quite engaging for at least a short time, but often only on his own terms ... and I do not know whether that is an effect or from a specific cause. So, I guess we can only continue to encourage positive interactions and see what develops further.

I think, in your situation, my thoughts would be wavering much as yours are. You are right that the constant teaching would be the reason for some of the things you see, but nothing is conclusive.

It can be very hard to be sure about AS in children this young, especially when they are bright. Obviously, your grandchild is bright and communicative; we just don't know yet HOW bright (you are right to suspicious of what the early learning means; on average, any advantage set in toddler years is equalized around 3rd grade, so there isn't much point to it, IMHO, but every parent has the right to choose what they think is best for their unique child and it most likely isn't hurting anything).

I will tell you what I tell parents asking similar questions: at this point in time, I don't think you need to know for sure if AS is present or not. I realize we all hear how important early intervention is, but the skills emphasized in early intervention are ones that your grandchild already has. So, for him, it shouldn't be critical. When he gets older it will be become easier to tell if he's AS or just bright. The social gap between him and his peers will increase as they mature socially and he does not. I would recommend looking at it again when he's around 4 even though it still may not be apparent yet, simply because having issues identified before starting school is helpful.

Meanwhile, you can encourage the parents to try some of the techniques we use with AS children if the child seems to have sensory issues, meltdowns, etc. Those conversations never have to mention AS. It can be as simple as, "some young children have sensory issues, so maybe that noise really is painful to him, and it would be better to mitigate it for now." Or, "Sometimes young children meltdown because they are overwhelmed, and not because they are misbehaving, in which case a break might be more helpful than consequences." Subtle things like that, which provide suggestions without implying you know better than the parents (the tactful way to give advice).

Otherwise, I think it is wonderful that you are simply playing with your grandchild. In my opinion, that is what all children at his age need most.

A lot of those things are traits of kids with AS, but I agree that your grandchild is still a little young. However, if you see red flags for Autism http://www.firstsigns.org/concerns/flags.htm there is nothing wrong at all in seeking out an early childhood assessment. I think you can usually find out by calling the Health Department who conducts those in your area.

My son who is 4 really started showing signs somewhere between 2 and 2.5 years old. In retrospect, I can see some signs before then, but none of them were glaring. The signs I saw were mostly sensory related... spinning, pushing/hitting others during transitions, extreme anxiety and upset in places with lots of other kids (despite being socialized at play groups since infancy). As he's gotten older, his social skills issues have become more apparent. He ended up finally getting some intervention after starting a preK program where the teacher pointed out to me that there were issues. I had a feeling, but the doctor kept telling me to wait and see. I do wish I had gotten intervention earlier because I know that with things like OT, a lot of good can be done before age 3 and certainly before age 5.

anyway, it's hard to know from this end if you should be concerned. But, I do feel like going with the gut is important. Have you asked the parents what they think? or is it a touchy subject?

I agree that a lot of what you posted sounds very AS like. But, he is very young. Since he has language and he is communicating, then I think the biggest indicator will be his interaction with his peers. If he starts any type of pre-k program at 3 or 4, it will probably be apparent then. Also, by the time he turns 2.5, when he is around children in a playgroup or any type of setting with children, you will be able to see how he interacts with his peers. My son never played with other kids and still does not at 5 yrs of age.

My son is 5.5, and he started memorizing all of his little books that we read to him at 2 yrs old. He knew all of his letters by the time he was 18 mos. old. He could name and label all sorts of things, but he had trouble with back and forth communication. He talked "at" us instead of to us, if that makes any sense. He would also just say random words or phrases out of the blue that were out of context. He would repeat things that he had heard off of the TV. If you said something to him, he would repeat it back to you-----Like if I said "Do you want to go outside?" He would say it right back "Do you want to go outside?" This is called echolalia. It can be a normal part of language development, but should fade by about 3 yrs of age.

When you say he has repetitive movements of his body, what type of things does he do? My son started flapping his hands at 1 yr of age and shaking his head back and forth (like saying "no" )

I think you are right to be concerned, but at this point, I would just keep it on your radar unless the parents mention anything to you. I would just keep encouraging the unstructured play time and interact with him on any level you can. Building a bond with him can be very helpful. There is actually a therapy method called "Floortime" written by Dr.Stanley Greenspan that encourages just that. Follow the child's lead and try to get into his world and then gently bring him into yours. Try anything you can to get him to relate such as music, stuffed animals, funny sounding toys, etc....But if he is fixated on something, and doesn't want to interact, then go with him and then gently introduce other things.

Welcome to Wrong Planet, and please feel free to ask any questions that you have.

As much as I was totally into getting my son OT because of his writing co-morbid, I'm honestly not convinced it does all that we think it does. I've ended up feeling that our pediatrician who did not want to give us a referral for it may have been right,, at least when it comes to the therapies for sensory issues and similar: there is nothing in the therapy that an attentive parent is not going to do anyway, and probably do better.

My friend has had her son in OT since he was 4, and has invested a small fortune it. She raves about it, and her son has done pretty well overall, succeeding in school and in sports. Her son actually does not have an AS diagnosis; just one for sensory integration issues.

My son, however, has only had the OT the school has offered, and it was narrowly focused on his motor skill issues (which the other boy has never had). He's done well, overall, too, basically graduating from all his services and most of his accommodations.

Both are happy kids.

Here's the thing: at age 4 her son was pretty obviously more sensory impaired than mine. At age 13 her son is STILL more obviously sensory impaired than mine. Both boys have IEP's and school accommodations, but her son needs much more in the way of behavior, seating, light and noise adaptions, etc. Both are doing fine, big scheme of things, but I can't help but feel that her child would have reached exactly the same place for a lot less money without the OT. The key seems to have more to do with positive environments, teachers willing to adapt, and so on. He hasn't been miraculously cured, and as is obvious from my experience with my son many sensory issues will fade simply with patience, understanding and the passage of time. Yet, because the other child was in OT, everyone assumes the OT is the reason the same issues improved in this other child. I just don't think the evidence is there, and since a lot of money and effort goes into the OT, it's worth questioning what would have happened if mom had played more with the child instead.

One thing that happened in my own family: a common compensatory strategy for people with undiagnosed AS is to think of themselves as better than everyone else: misunderstood geniuses. My parents (both fairly classic AS professor-types) were this way - and they pushed my brother and I well beyond our capacity to learn because we needed to be "better" than all the other kids, no matter if nobody liked us or we were terrible in sports. We were both reading and learning second languages before kindergarten (I think we had some reading at two) and were all highly verbal.

I'm not sure that this is what's happening here, but as autism has a strong genetic component, it wouldn't surprise me if this was a typical style of parenting for some people with undiagnosed Aspergers who had difficult childhoods but later led successful lives. The problem is, this particular strategy makes it incredibly difficult for anyone to offer help.

So many of these comments are helpful! Thank you so much, all.

I noticed today that ZZ enjoyed the educational exercises my daughter did with him after breakfast, but pitched a fit of frustration when his father tried a similar activity after dinner. I mentioned to them, in passing, that I wondered if he was upset because it was the end of the day and he just didn't have the resources for it as he did earlier. His parents thought it made sense and the 'schooling' stopped - and we have a much happier little boy right now than we usually have this close to bedtime.

Many thanks to DW A Mom for her timely words regarding 'tactful' comments. Being a very direct New Englander, that doesn't come naturally, lol - but it is absolutely necessary in this situation!

I don't see it as a "cure all" but I've learned a lot about my son since starting it. And, prior to getting OT, I really didn't understand what to do with him to help him. You're right that an attentive parent can do a lot of the stuff themselves, but I feel like I'm still learning a lot about his sensory issues. My son is a sensory seeker, which presents itself as hyper activity. The ways to help him with that are not completely intuitive. So, the knowledge and experience of an OT has helped a lot. All of his OT has happened through the school system, so I haven't paid a dime so far. I did get an assessment from a private OT just last week because they are only working on fine motor skills at school now, and we're still seeing some sensory seeking behavior and trouble with transitions at home.

Anyway, he's still young, so I don't have the experience of seeing his progress over years, but for the last year, I feel like it's been very helpful.

I have no idea what OT is, so don't understand a couple of the messages here.

I believe that is "Occupational Therapy" dealing with being/becoming functional within a given setting.

So sorry! OT is Occupational Therapy. A lot of our kids have Sensory Integration issues, and one of the suggested treatment is to get OT with a therapist certified in Sensory Processing Disorder. Sensory issues can present in a lot of ways. Sometimes it's seen as defensiveness (not wanting to be touched, or hear loud noises) and other times it can be sensory seeking behavior (wanting more more more) http://spdfoundation.net/facts.html It manifests itself in different ways.. Check out the link for more info. Sorry for using jargon!

Ok - I get what OT is now. I guess I had a narrow idea of what occupational therapy was, 'cause that was the only OT I knew about and was sure it didn't apply to children, lol.