Aspartners: My responses

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http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/mes ... sg=11007.1

WastedPaper:

"Now, for the reason for my rant: As I researched Cassandra links, I came across some forum entries in Wrong Planet. I've browsed only a bit through it in the past, the forum is immense and I get overwhelmed so I don't spend as much time there. But I decided to read the Cassandra entries, and what I found completely infuriated me. I had NO IDEA that AS people held such hatred for NT people! They totally discredit that Cassandra Disorder exists, and that we are ridiculous for putting any of our relationship woes on them. They think FAAAS is a joke, filled with self-righteous NT people who despise Aspies, and who refuse to take any responsibility upon themselves. WHAT?!?! So much of what I've experienced here and other forums are people that LOVE their AS partners! Who stay in hopes that things will get better! Who did (and still do) everything they possibly could to make it work! It is total insanity. Our stories are REAL, the heartbreak and agony and indecision is REAL, and they laugh at us behind our backs? Tell us if we aren't happy to just leave? Think we are idiots for staying? Really???"

Here is my opinion on this wastedpaper. There are a ton of treatments out there for ailments which are considered questionable and quackery. Personally, this is what I am most concerned about. On the other hand, I truly do believe Cassandra Disorder should be examined. I do believe there are people out there who do suffer symptoms like this when they are not getting certain needs met. Personally, I think personally some aspies are making the same mistakes some aspies claim NTs are making. I have iterated this before and I will iterate it again. We may be inadvertently attempting to make our NT spouses into something they're as well. We need some kind of middle ground here. No wastedpaper, you're not an idiot for not leaving. I do understand your feelings for your aspie husband. I have those same feelings for my NT wife as well. I love my NT wife a lot.

"I saw a side of AS that I didn't want to see. It was almost like a train wreck - I was horrified and disgusted, but I couldn't look away. To think that while we are adapting, adjusting, and compromising for the sake of love, investing our time and energy into finding ways to salvage our relationships, all the while risking our own mental and physical health, they think we are all just a bunch of dumba$$es for staying. It literally broke my heart."

I could be wrong about this but the reason they may be saying this wastedpaper is because these particular aspies may not have ever had someone they loved or cherished before. They would not experience these feelings and would not have the bandwidth and data to understand this. I have these feelings for my wife who I adore and cherish so I understand where you're coming from.

"So - sorry for taking so long to get to the point... way more back story than I intended, but my mind has been racing. Have any of you come across Aspies who DESPISE people that aren't on the spectrum? Is this normal? Do folks with AS secretly (or publicly!) loathe us - just because we are NT, or because they have to live in an NT world??? "

I can't really speak for other aspies but I can speak for myself. A lot of NTs have treated me like piece of garbage. I am treated like I am a mental ret*d by NTs. From my point of view, I perceive that some NTs talk down to me and are condescending to me. In fact, I felt the person who responded to you "muriel1970" was very condescending when she said "I think they rant on and on about it because they are on a forum where they feel like they belong and where they feel like they can be their true selves. I did not take what they said very seriously because I know their ability to reason is impeded by their AS." In addition, she makes certain assumptions.

1. The NT way is the only correct way to reason.
2. She has the correct interpretation of our word meanings and usages to these meanings.
3. Just because a given society says something is true it automatically makes it true. This is called a fallacy of the appeal to the masses.

Now I'm goint to speak to Muriel1970:

From my point of view you come across as condescending. It comes across like you're talking down to a group of people. Honestly, I will have to concede that there are aspies who do the same thing. They think they are better than NTs as well. Can all of us accept that we are all human beings with our pros and cons? Can all of us accept that none of us are better nor lesser than the other? Can't we all just cut the nonsense and the BS out? I am speaking to both aspies on here and the aspartners on delphi.com. Muriel1970, I will say from my point of view I feel that NTs ability to reason is hampered as well. I will give an example. The prevailing theory in modern education is we're supposed to learn social skills from our peers. What kind of a social skill am I supposed to learn by saying "what's up shawty?" or "What's up my n***a?" Maybe I'm wrong I am open to reproof. I could be missing data and information.

"What i found incredibly sad was the often misguided advice they would give one another in the "love and dating" department. Often times these scenarios involved advising a man with AS on how to manage his relationship with an NT woman and I wanted to scream to the person seeking the advice "this might not be the place to get real world dating advice" but of course I always remained silent and just kind of lurked around on the site. "

Again, this is from my point of view and from my experience. I have tried to engage other NT people but to me it's futile and useless. These are the things that happen:

1. My questions are ignored.
2. I'm told to grow up or I'm x age I should know.
3. I'm told I'm being rude in one form or another.
4. I'm cussed at.
5. Life is not fair
6. Cut the pity act

In real life, when I try to talk about certain things or ask questions I receive the same responses or I'm being told I'm making a big deal of nothing. If I can't obtain answers to my questions or clarifications on things from quote on quote "Normal" People then what else am I supposed to do? Even tarantella64 who is an NT on here says most people will not take the time to help us out or give us clarifications. Again, what do we do when we ask questions and its an exercise in frustration and futility? All I can do is come on here and attempt to make guesses based upon what I do know. It would help me at least if the women from aspartners at delphi.com would come here, answer my questions, show my where I am wrong on things and why I am wrong?

Is a given society always correct in what it believes and holds to be true? Are there times that a given society including The United States of America can be wrong in what it does? Can a society be wrong in what it believes to be true? I am going to ask this as well. If the NT way especially the American way is so good, proper, and correct then why isn't it open for debate, challenge, and discussion whatsoever? For example, I am supposed to have a positive attitude and this is one of the correct ways I am supposed to go in America. If this is so good, true, proper, and absolutely correct, then again why isn't this open for any debate, challenge, and any discussion about this whatsoever?

Here are my questions about employment.
1. Why does my personality count more than my ability to be able to do the job? I've always been taught and trained up to get along with my co-workers no matter what personality they had. In the old days, this is what you had to do. Now, it seems like you don't. Why?

2. Why does all of this office politics exist? Why can't we all just do our jobs, get the work done that needs to be done, and go home? Why do we have all of this politically correct non-sense?

3. Why do I now not only have to meet the requirements of the job but I have to exceed the requirements. Why is this now a requirement? How can one meet the requirements if one always has to exceed the requirements? In essence, it is true that I can never meet the requirements am I correct?

muriel1970, if my ability to reason is impaired like you state then how am I able to ask and come up with these questions? Finally, if my ability to reason and in general if the aspergers person's ability to reason is impaired then how are we expected to survive in society as it stands today on our own whatsoever without any kind of assistance whatsoever? How do you at aspartners expect us to provide ourselves a living whatsoever?

I feel bad that they feel like that about this place but, I guess, it kind of comes down to this: no part of our mission involves making NTs feel good.

The site can very much go too far in attacking some NT world concepts and statements, but that is actually a small fraction of who is here. Those posters need to understand that, it doesn't represent the membership or AS. Just some members have had a rougher road than others and if they can't vent here, where can they? I feel sad that it leaves so many misunderstanding this place and even AS, but fixing that simply isn't something we have the resources to do. Most of our members just ignore those rants.

It was talked about many times when I was a moderator, but in the end it comes down to TOS and mission. These partners are not really on our radar of who we are here to serve, although if they join and post the mod team will protect them same as any other member.

Anyway. Glad you are sticking up for AS spouses and issues. It helps.

i actually went and read the thread before reading your post, cubedemon, and i had the same gut reaction to what muriel1970 was saying about AS affecting the ability to reason.

i dont know that there really needs to be a labeled disorder for the emotional needs going unmet in a relationship. its not as if only autistic partners have failures in that area. but i can recognize some of the things they describe as happening in my relationship with my SO. our 12th anniversary together was last month, and we only realized he was asd less than a year ago. for us, that realization has made a world of difference in our relationship. i think going from not knowing to knowing has given us a better insight than those couples who start off with the knowledge of autism being present. we both equally know what its like being unable to understand the other and not knowing why, so we started on a more even footing.

there is a lot of NT bashing that goes on, sometimes overt, sometimes more subtle. the worst offenders are those that dismiss someone or their ideas solely due to them being NT. thats simply arrogance. i chalk it up to the fact that autistics can be jerks, too. being autistic doesnt make you a perfect human being, you are still allowed to be wrong =P

I find it funny how they are upset with this place and find it depressing when it's the same over there. I find it funny how they are upset with NT bashing but yet they turn around and bash us.

It's a double standard.


"No not all Aspies hate NT, I am an aspie and I cannot stand NT bashing. I think it's stupid and I used to do it too and then I realized how stupid it was. Aspies can be just as bad and ignorant as NTs and be just as intolerant of their AS traits. They can also be as judgmental. You guys do aspie bashing as well while they do NT bashing so you're both even. This place is also depressing so we're even then. You think WP is depressing, I think this place is depressing because of the lack of understanding about AS and what you ladies and men expect in a relationship, what your ASpartners do isn't good enough because you feel it's forced and it's not natural for them and you can feel it's forced. That is depressing.

And how long and how many chances can you keep giving your partner? If you have been with them for a long time, how much longer are you going to wait until they change? Ten more years? Twenty for years? Thirty?

When I was in my first relationship, I was only with my ex for three months and he said I gave up on him. I found that very irksome because I gave him a chance to change and he didn't. He didn't want to change. I gave him advice and tried helping him with his problems and he blew me off every time. So now he was saying I gave up on him? I was not going to be working with him for the next twenty five years when he didn't want to change and no progress had been made."


That is what I would say over there but I see no point in creating a new account and posting that there because what are the odds of them approving that post? It speaks against them so I'd doubt they approve it. I'd be very surprised if they did.

azurecrayon, Tony Attwood seems to beg to differ. http://www.tonyattwood.com.au/index.php ... Itemid=176

Some people seem to say aspies can are excellent at reason and problem solving. Some people seem to say we're not. Is it that only some of us are excellent at these things? Which is it?

As I said before from my past point of view NTs don't seem to reason that well. I was wrong on this. These are just from my initial perceptions. I have learned my perceptions are wrong. It is just that that NTs reason in a different way. I had to do a lot of examination to understand that. azurecrayon, you make it seem like that the NT style way of reasoning is the only correct way to go. I'm sorry but that attitude gets me angry. From my perspective it comes across as arrogance. Honestly, when aspies do the same thing it makes me angry as well. It is pure arrogance and my question to all those who think this way is where do you get off thinking you are superior than another?

I believe my questions are valid and still stand. I see that avoided answering them. Why is that?

I am going to ask you some more questions.

1. If the NT style is the epitome of perfection than why do we have so many wars and poverty across this planet?
2. If the NT style is so proper and correct then why is the American Economy is such poor shape?
3. If the NT style is so proper and correct then why do we have alot of homeless people if this is supposed to be the best country in the world?
4. If the NT reasoning ability is so great then why do NTs not want to examine the questions that I ask?

azurecrayon, I do not believe you're inferior or superior to me. All I am doing is giving you a taste of your own medicine that you're just dishing out in your response to me which was pure superiority and arrogance.

I read azurecrayon's post very differently than you did. I thought she was backing YOU up.

So did I.

Maybe I misunderstood what you said azurecrayon. azurecrayon, if I did I apologize. Will you please accept my apology? Please don't hate me azurecrayon. This does tell me something. I need to make sure that I am understanding people correctly. Again I am so so so sorry. I have major problems with the context of words and phrases. I may have taken what azurecrayon said out of context.

My perspective could be skewed but this is another thing that did irritate me and adds to the proof of what I am saying. I asked a whole series of questions and from my perspective they were ignored and dodged. Whenever I ask NTs questions this is one of the results I receive. How can I know what the correct way is that I am supposed to go if people will not explain their belief systems and why they believe them to be true?

Here are other questions to the women at aspartners. If the experts are correct in everything they say and believe then why are they not open to any kind of examination at all? If all of their facts are truly facts then why do they have to keep changing the DSM all of the time? Why was homosexuality once considered a disorder and now it's not? Why does one expert, Dr. Joy DeGruy, wants to have this as a disorder? http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/2523/ My point to all of this is no one is always correct in what they say. This includes authority figures and experts. Even I have been wrong plenty of times and I will continue to be wrong plenty of times. I believe things need to be examined and re-examined for truth and accuracy. My question to the aspartners at delphi.com is how do you all know that what you all are perceiving is the actual truth? Do we as human beings not have biases, misconceptions, and predjudices? All I want to do is:

a. examine certain beliefs
b. see what is true
c. understand why it is true
d. help make a better world

What frustrates me the most is most people do not want to do this and I do not know why? Why?

I went through that post and it's comments.

Wow - so much misunderstanding there.

All that vitriol over the postings of a single WP member from among thousands. I'm not sure how Wastedpaper or the other posters came to the conclusion that all of WP is like Cassandra's posts. Most of the NT bashing threads are usually peppered with just as many, if not more, people against bashing. I've noticed that many of those doing the bashing are also fairly young. Not all, but the loudest, most obnoxious ones seem to be. I remember being a loud mouthed teen too...

In all, it was a very sad post. There was one post that talked about NT's and AS being two different cultures. At least the tone of that one had some acceptance in it.

Your points are all valid cubedemon. Obviously, these ladies have never heard of the dx criteria for AS: 'normal or above average intelligence' is actually required for a dx so the inability to reason makes no sense to me. I'm not surprised that they had trouble reading WP - without understanding the context, much of what is said here could be misconstrued. Honestly, this is the first time I've heard of 'Cassandra Syndrome' - funny because it also explains most of my life. These ladies will never understand that from the other side. They are used to having their words believed and heard and respected. No one questions their ability to reason just because they are NT. They have never had someone speak to them like a frightened 5 year old because they read 'Asperger's' on their medical chart.

I think we do need an NT forum here on WP. I do not think that bridges can be built between AS and NT's without inclusion. But, as most of the NT/AS support sites I have read have illustrated, it would be a volatile mix. There are alot of misconceptions and stereotypes rampant in many of those forums and inviting that into WP would only be throwing gas on the fire. On the other hand, I've found the Parent's Forum here to be nothing but gracious, helpful and understanding. NT parents, AS parents and just those Aspies wanting to offer insight or assistance... I see nothing 'horrifying' or 'disgusting' here.

If you can, take what they say with a big grain of salt. We do not know what their experiences are and, we know, that they are not prone expanding their thinking to include the AS point of view. They are just two in a sea of many many NT's who do try and are much more open minded. Yes, they are out there. Unfortunately, they usually don't make as much noise as those on a rant.

While that thread was over generalized, there IS NT bashing here on WP. I have experienced it first hand. No, it's not universal but it does occur in the other sections of this board, which I now try to stay away from. There should not be bashing of either side I feel although I understand that WP is a safe place for Aspies to write about their frustrations in the NT world. But I did have someone dig into me pretty severely here once telling me that I could never parent my child with AS appropriately because I will never "get" her. Those kind of posts really do not help anyone.

You're right, there is NT bashing over here and in my opinion it needs to stop. Like League_Girl says it is stupid. In my opinion it is getting none of us anywhere.

There is some bashing of neurotypicals, but there is also a lot of factual discussion of relationships between auties and neurotypicals that may come across as bashing to some, but which is necessary to providing useful advice to aspies and auties on how to deal with the neurotypically dominated world.

For that matter, there's some aspie bashing here on the parents' form, and there's a lot of discussion of how to deal with aspie or autie children that comes across as bashing to other members of the forum, even though it's not meant that way.

Very true. I cringe when I see a new poster lamenting all that is "wrong" with their child. But I think it is a process of coming to terms with the differences and learning to appreciate them, a process that is made easier by the parents board here on WP. I don't frequent the partner/love board so I have no experience with the posters there. Most of my experiences of harsh posters has been in the General Autism board. I figure I should stay here in the parents world anyway.

I'd like to take part in this discussion, but before I do I hope to get an answer to a question I've had since joining WP:

Background first: I don't have AS. My son does. I have TS and OCD. I was diagnosed fairly late in life, but before he was born. I spent several years on TS forums (what few there were), in TS chat rooms (ok, THE TS chat room... only one), on the TS Usenet group (remember Usenet?), etc. During that time I saw the term "neurotypical", or "NT" for short. In that context it was vaguely taken to mean, "Someone whose personality does not fall under a diagnosis from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders". If someone had ADHD, they weren't considered NT. If someone had TS, likewise. Same for OCD, AS, BPD, or any other acronym you can pull from the DSM.

I wouldn't exactly call it NT bashing, but there was some frustration and lashing out. Mostly from the context of "they don't get it!" Nope, not unless they have to. But the idea was re-hashed from time to time, so from time to time the vitriol content of the forum went up. Then the topic got old and it went back down.

The concept that people with TS, or ADHD, or OCD, or AS reasoned differently from people who didn't have an acronym all their own was more or less accepted. Lots of terms were tossed around, like "nonlinear thinking". I don't think anyone attached the terms "better", "worse", "acceptable", or "unacceptable" to either side of this discussion. It was simply different.

I stopped reading the forums some years ago. When I was first diagnosed I had a lot of questions I needed answered, and a lot of propping up. I'd spent my life ignorant of what the motor and vocal tics meant, and truly believed I was stark raving mad. I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt it was just a matter of time before the men in white coats with the nets and the straight jackets came to take me away. You can imagine my delight on the day I was diagnosed! But I had a lot to work through. Hence the years spent on the forums. But they're for support, after all. I reached a point where I didn't need the propping up, and where I wasn't doing such a good job of propping up others, either. So I left.

Which brings me to present-day. My son was diagnosed with AS not too long ago. I'm back in that stage of needing questions answered. So here I am, looking.

My first foray into WP was a little shocking. I was a little surprised to learn that the definition of "neurotypical" used here included me. THAT was an eye-opener. I looked it up on Wikipedia, and found out that yes, as the term was originally coined I was neurotypical. I had to laugh. Then I had to tic. Because really, that doesn't stop. Ever.

So now I came across this thread, which confuses me as well. cubedemon6073, I'll try to answer your questions if you can answer some of mine:

1 - Is someone who tics non-stop and keeps being blind-sided by intrusive thoughts neurologically typical?

2 - In another thread I saw someone imply that people without AS don't get other mental illnesses. This point was refuted several times, but in later posts in the same thread the implication was still there. Is this a commonly held belief? (This one didn't make me laugh... I was a little too shocked when I read it.)

3 - This one may open a can of worms, so bear with me. I don't intend to be inflammatory: A common thread I've seen in a number of posts is that AS is seen as something unwanted from a fair number of people who have it. (This ties back to #2.) How common is this? I'm asking this sincerely. This was common in the TS forums as well, though it seemed a little less wide-spread than what I see here. But the sample size is different so I could be reading the wrong thing into this. I don't appreciate the intrusive thoughts when my OCD is peaking, but it's a part of who I am. So I take it that way. As Popeye said, "I yam what I yam." I see my son's having AS in much the same way. He is what he is, folks. As much as he needs to learn to function in society, so society needs to learn to function with him.

4 - How much does the community at WP interact with people with other conditions? Again, I'm not asking to be inflammatory. TS has an extremely high comorbidity rate, so it was honestly rare to run into someone on the TS forums who only had TS. Genetically, TS is one of several conditions that comes out of the same cluster, so it was common to see parents with ADHD or OCD who had kids with TS and ADHD, or some other mix. Everyone sort of bumped along. This is another reason why I'm having a hard time understanding the term "neurotypical" as it is used here. It seems to imply a separation I don't understand. When I read the thread that led me to ask my second question, I realized I REALLY didn't understand that separation.

Now to try to address the three assertions the other poster made, and to try to answer your questions:

1 - Egads, I hope the NT way is not the only way to reason, regardless of the definition of NT! There is no one way to reason. That's why people ask the advice of others. Someone will have a different way of looking at a problem that will provide the insight that's needed to solve it. It may be the person with AS. It might be the person with TS. It might be the guy who serves coffee in the morning. It might be the person living under the bridge. It might be the entrepreneur who made it good. Everyone's world experiences, everyone's hard-wiring is of value. As a friend likes to say, it takes all kinds.

2 - This is why I'm asking the questions: I don't understand the word meanings and the usages of those meanings. I hope you can help.

3 - Just because a given society says something is true doesn't have any bearing on the truth of the matter at all. This is especially true of history, which is unfortunately highly mutable. How many people still think Europeans believed the world was flat in the late 1400's? I still run into this one. It slays me.

4 - I hope we can some day accept that we are all human beings with our pros and cons. This goes back to #1. It takes all kinds.

5 - I also hope we can accept that none of us are better or lesser than the other. This also goes back to #1.

6 - Everyone's ability to reason is hampered to some degree. Everyone has their habits, their prejudices, their blind spots. This, too, is human. Douglas Adams wrote a really nice book called, "Last Chance to See" that explores this idea from the standpoint of endangered species. Before he died I got the chance to see him speak about the book. While describing the kakapo, an endangered parrot in New Zealand, he said, "You just wanted to grab them and shake them and say, 'Don't you get it?'" His point, though, was that we do exactly the same thing. And no matter how clearly you see it, you can't simply take the human species by the lapels and shake it. The catch here: we are ALL included in that species. We all have blind spots in our reasoning.

7 - A given society is not always correct in what it believes and holds to be true. This is why societies change over time. And yes, the attitudes, assumptions, and beliefs of a society should be open to debate, challenge, and discussion. Otherwise they stagnate.

On employment:

8 - Personality counts as much as the ability to do the job because the job is more than simply completing a given task. That interaction I talked about in #1 is an important part of the work place. Leaving out NT versus non-NT, I'll give you an example: At a previous job one of the people I interacted with was incredibly abrasive. They were right, everyone else was wrong by definition. They didn't need to work with anyone else because they were the best. They didn't need to ask for input because their plan was always the right one. I hated to work with them. Contrast that with another person I worked with at the same place: They led by example, but always asked for input first. Their opinion did not count more than anyone else's. They never told anyone to do anything they weren't willing to do themselves. We jumped through hoops for them. Both people could get the job done. I'd make the point that the second did a better job because they had the input from everyone on the team, but that's stepping outside the context of the question.

But to read the rest of your question, I think you already understand this. Maybe you could explain more what you mean by your personality counting more than your ability to do the job. I think I'm not understanding your question completely.

9 - I wish I could answer this one. I wish office politics didn't exist. It makes the job much MUCH easier. Part of the question comes down to where people's focus is. At that place I talked about in #8 we had an upper management type whose motivation was looking out for himself. He would gladly shaft people in order to secure a better bonus package for himself. He spent more time doing office politics than he spent doing his job. No one appreciated it. And no, he didn't get the job done. Go figure.

10 - You may well be correct. Read your job description and see what it says. One of the lines in mine is "Any and all other duties as required," or words to that effect. What that means is no matter what I do, I have never fulfilled all of my job requirements. This works so long as the management at the company understands all the implications of this and doesn't wield it like a club. I don't know what it is like where you work. But I will say this: If anyone says you should give 110% or something silly like that, I don't think it's "impaired" or wrong-headed in any way to point out that 110% exceeds your design requirements by 10%, and that rapid burnout is inevitable.

To answer your last question, I don't think a person's ability to reason is impaired by having AS or not. By having TS or not. By having OCD or not. Or ADHD. Or BPD. Or the acronym of choice. They will reason as they reason, and the train of logic they follow will make sense to them and likely to others. Granted, in some cases they may be so different that functioning in the statistically averaged population of people on the planet may be tough, or even impossible. But to make a blanket statement that takes in any one group of people and say, "Can't" is naive at best.

First, I am very glad that you took time and energy to addressing my post. I am very happy about that. Second, I will be happy and glad to answer your questions.

I have thought about this in the past. I am a creature of habit and I just use the word Neurotypical out of habit. In my opinion, the meaning of the word is very vague and ambigious. We seem to define the word by what it is not and not what it is. Personally, I believe that all human beings are built with a certain set of traits. I believe that these traits are like the sliding bars in a sound system. I believe that most people have a certain average range that they stay in with these sliding bars. I believe that the non-average go outside of these ranges. These are just my opinions and I do not have any facts to back these up.



I don't think this is a commonly held belief anymore. I can refute it myself as well.



No offense taken my brother. Yes, there are a certain amount of people who do not want to have AS. Honestly, I do not know how common it is. I do not have a respective sample size.



Again, no offense taken. I do not know how often the community at WP interacts with people with other conditions. This is a very good question. Personally, I do not do it that much but maybe that has to change. Again, I believe the definition of Neurotypical is very vague and ambigious. Maybe people with different conditions need to start talking to each other. None of us here knows everything.



I have asked advice of others in the past. A lot of times I obtain no answer back. The person I ask will say the question is inappropriate, I get ignored, or I'm cursed at. Even if I do obtain an answer a lot of times I do not understand the answer given and when I try to probe further the other person becomes angry with me.



I will try the best that I can to help you. I am glad you're taking time to ask questions and to answer questions.



My point exactly.



There is where I run into problems and I see a paradox to acceptance and tolerance. First, what about the hard core psychopath? Second, should people accept and tolerate those who are unaccepting and tolerant of others? What is the resolution to this?



I hope so too but as I stated in number 4 even what I believe has problems and issues.



You're right



Exactly, this what I believe is happening in America. Personally, I believe that certain things like having a positive attitude and common sense should be open to debate, challenge and discussion. The thing is a lot of people who believes in these things do not want discuss it.



I understand what you are saying here. You're talking about those who are in a positions of power and authority. I was not talking about them. Mainly, I was talking about the grunt. If the word grunt is offensive I apologize. I could not think of a better word at this time.



To better answer your question I would have to describe my ideal version of the workplace.

1. I have a set of duties that are set in stone and if they do change I am told in advance.
2. Everything that the employer wants me to do is spelled out to me.
3. From time to time, I receive constructive feedback on what I am doing correctly and what I am doing incorrectly. Anything, that I am doing incorrectly I would love to have suggestions on how to correct what I am doing incorrectly. I would love to have a set of written detailed instructions telling me how I need to implement these suggestions. I would love to know how urgent it is to alter these incorrect things and when I need to alter them by.
4. I want employers to go back to the old attitude of "I don't pay you to think. I pay you to do." This means I should not have to take initiative at all. If I do any thinking it should only be within the scope of my duties. In my opinion the things that employers want us to take initiative on should be up to management and not up to the employee or grunt. I should not have to try to guess at what needs to be done and what should not be done. In my opinion, it should be up to management to tell the employees what needs to be done, how it needs to be done, and when it needs to be done by. If something goes wrong then it should be up to management to make the decisions and not the employees under the management. Let's say I take initative. There could be a situation in which I did take initiative and I was not supposed to do so. I could end up screwing it up.

5. I would love to have the old Frederick Taylor's Scientific Management system back into practice. I will give an example of the things I'm saying. Let's say League_girl, you, and I work in the kitchen of a restaurant. Let's say dishes need to be washed and dried. League_girl could wash the dishes. I could dry the dishes. You could put up the dishes where they need to be at. We are show in detail how to do our jobs correctly. I am shown the proper method to dry the dishes and League_Girl is shown how to wash the dishes in the correct manner. You are shown where to put them. Alternate methods would have to be well thought out if some employees were absent.



6. I want all of this multitasking (tasks A,B,A,B) to be cut out.
7. Finally, get rid of all of this political correctness garbage, be direct, say what you mean and mean what you say.





Personally, I think this practice that goes on is stupid.



Personally, I do not agree with this practice at all. There are exceptions like if an employee is absent. In my opinion this would have to be factored in as well.



I am unemployed right now and on disability. I am trying to obtain a job but with my disability and this economy it is almost impossible.



I agree with you. Tell those at aspartners at delphi.com. http://people.delphiforums.com/mamamarch/aspartners/

Try reasoning with them and see what happens.

My question(s) to those at aspartners are as follows:

a. First, do you see those with aspergers as mentally ret*d? By the things you say my impression is that you think those with aspergers are mentally ret*d.

b. If we're ret*d then I will ask again how are we expected to function in society on our own without any help whatsoever?

c. This is my question to mainstream society. If we're ret*d with poor reasoning and problem solving abilities then why can't we have the full fringe benefits of being ret*d? Why do you all think at the same time we're capable of
a. supporting ourselves
b. obtaining jobs
c. keeping jobs

Why are these things forced down our throats?

Why can't we get the same benefits as those who are truly mentally ret*d or intellectually disabled. I mean those as having an IQ as 69 or below. The fringe benefits are they

a. do not have to worry about providing themselves a living
b. jobs are provided for them and they do not have to go out and seek a job
c. they are provided food and shelter

Why are there exceptions to the "You're entitled to nothing" rule given to those with an Intellectual disability but none whatsoever are given to us? If none of us are entitled to anything like mainstream society believes then they shouldn't be entitled to anything as well. Let's let those who have an IQ around 40 obtain jobs and support themselves on their own is what I say.

It seems like you ladies at aspartners and mainstream society seem to hold contradictory views.

I'm going to use a fourth level coping mechanism. I believe that this is an excellent representation of some people that exist in mainstream society. Some people in society have their heads so far up their own asses their reasoning ability diminishes over time. This is one of the side effects of being in your own s**t for years and years. This does apply to people in all groups no matter if they're aspie, aspartners, or anywhere else. Be warned though this animation is a bit graphic. http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/u ... dupass.gif

League_girl will you please tell the story of your ex if you do not mind? I believe this would add to one of my points that some people are just jerks sometimes. I would love for Lene to add her story as well. Lene had to deal with an as*hole as welll who happened to be on the spectrum.

a. Some jerks are aspies.
b. Some jerks are non-aspies.
c. Some aspies are jerks
d. Some aspies are not jerks.

There was one aspie guy on here that said the phrase "crap out kids." Come on now?