Dealing with violence towards siblings

Post Reply New Topic

Just wondering if others could please share how they've dealt with the violent outbursts of their AS children, particularly towards siblings? My 4yo son is very violent. He previously would scratch himself whenever he was annoyed/fighting with his sister but over the past year he's started hurting the one who "did the wrong thing". Sadly his obsessions make him think just about everything is wrong. His 5.5yo sister might do something as simple as putting away the Play-Doh *she* was playing with (as he had his own can of it) and he claws her in the face, blood dripping and all. And it's *impossible* for him to admit it was wrong to do it - he says it was good to hurt her because she did the *wrong* thing! He mainly controls her by pulling her hair (she has long hair) and he's removed so much of her hair, one side of her head looks like it has half the hair the other side has. I have been wondering about cutting her hair to shoulder length, just so he can't grab her so easily, or at such a distance. Do others think that's wise? Or am I giving in to him instead of dealing with an issue properly? Or maybe just for the sake of my daughter's head!

Also, he will hurt her for the slightest things - just because she pronounces a word different to him, or calls me Mom instead of Mummy (he'll rip up any papers she writes with the "wrong" word and attacks her for saying it, etc).

I've read the book The Explosive Child about "Collaborative Problem-Solving", but when you've got a 4yo who's very OCD about things and hardly thinks anything is right (we often can't predict when something is going to be wrong in his mind), and it's mainly his siblings he's being voilent with, this doesn't really work!

He also hurts his 2yo brother a lot - punching, scratching, pinching, kicking, etc. And worse of all, his baby sister (who he actually adores) is now receiving violence from him when he finds she's done something! Even when it's not against him - it might just be that she eats a page from a book, rips a piece of paper, or grabs his hair, etc. He'll tell me that he still loves her very much even when he hurts her, but basically thinks every "wrong" has to be dealt with by voilence.

Any ideas?

For background, our 4yo son is very verbal (correcting his own sentences by the age of 2!) but has a lot of sensory issues (really doesn't cope with sounds/noise at all), lights are a problem too (esp sunshine), prefers adults to children, obsessive about a lot of things, (and the list could go on). He is currently being assessed for an autistic spectrum disorder, likely Aspergers, we think. So far seen a pediatrician to begin the process & submitted the answers to 11 pages of questions about him, speech & language therapist was visiting yesterday & returns again in 2 weeks (observing how he plays with toys & talks, etc), and we see an educational psychologist in 4 weeks time.

So everything is in motion for a diagnosis (we hope!) but could really do with some real advice about violent behavour! I feel scared to think what he could be like at age 12+ if he's like this at only age 4!

Many thanks to anyone who reads this, and any replies would be much appreciated!

Grace

He must be very smart, I wasn't thinking like that till I was about ten years old. Then I understood the concepts behind my anger-management classes.

Sounds like you really need to address his sensory issues so his isn't on edge all the time. I really thought the techniques in the Explosive Child would work better with kids that are slightly older. I couldn't see implementing them with my kiddo at 4. I would recommend the Out of Synch Child (author's name is escaping me at the moment) and The Complete Guide to Asperger's by Tony Attwood. My younger son is high-functioning like yours. I just have to keep him away from his brother when he is in that kind of a "mood". Social stories might help him understand the physical pain he is causing others http://www.thegraycenter.org/. These must be used at times when he is not upset and repeated often until the message gets through. I think that once you have resolved some of the sensory issues that are probably causing him discomfort, you might see the aggressive behavior moderate. It is hard, I have only one other child and I often am unable to intervene before older brother gets hurt so I can't imagine how tough it must be with 4.

we've had the same problem with our 6yo at that age. we had to drill it into his head that hitting was wrong. everytime he hurt someone it is an automatic time out. he likes to make exuses too and blame everyone elses actions for his behaviour. he is going to fight you tooth and nail when you put your foot down but you have to protect your other kids from him as they have a right to be safe in their home. our guy still gets violent when he's enraged but it is not as often. we have to tell him all the time that it's not okay to hurt people and when he does it and he's trying to tell us why i always say "i don't care why you did it, it's not okay." we also have to deal with alot of tattling from him because we have him trained now to tell us when he thinks he sees a problem with something. i have to admit though that most of the progress we've made has been because of the help of his medication controling his temper. we had to put him on an anti-psychotic(risperidone) to protect the other kids and ourselves from him, and the kids at school too.

Thanks for your reply. I think you're probably right about the sensory issues being a major problem. Just this week he's started putting his finger in his ears whenever he's speaking. Well, not *everytime* he speaks, but whenever he asks a question or is answering a question, he plugs his ears with his fingers, and then talks very loudly (or shouts!). He's also doing this if he's supplying us with a bit of information we've forgotten - like the name of someone on a TV program, or title of a book, brand of something, etc. I don't know if it's that he doesn't want to hear the background noise of the family...? or if he doesn't want to hear his voice? Though he says "I can still hear with my ears covered" when i ask him about it. But it's a bit worrying when he is covering his ears soooooooo many times throughout the day.

On Tuesday we were at the supermarket and he wanted to hand the shopping to the lady so she could scan it and she was getting annoyed with him and asked him to stop. of course he didn't, so she said it again more loudly. And of course, fingers go in ears - he looks rather frightened. then he gets the bottle of dish soap and "hugs" it (as he'd picked it out - a cute bottle he liked, something we'd not had before) and I just felt so sad for him - hugging a bottle of dish soap as if it was exciting. But obviously trying to ignore all the sensory annoyances around him.

Must try and get the books you mentioned. I haven't yet understood how sensory therapy works, but I'm sure he needs something, as I believe that's his biggest struggle in life - or at least a major one.

It sounds like you've had a very similar situation to us!

Just wondering, how do you get him to stay in one place for "time out"? We've been trying to be very consistant with it the past couple of weeks, but it's impossible to get him to stay on the chair we've told him to sit on. We have to physically take him there, of course, as he'll never go himself. And then he kicks/hits us if we try to make sure he doesn't get up, or even if we just stand nearby to ensure he's there for 30 seconds. I doubt he's ever there for a whole minute even, which makes me wonder if it will do any good if he gets up so quickly?

I have been telling him for months now that I want him to come and tell me EVERY time he gets angry - before he hurts them. I've even told him that if he wants to hurt someone, come tell me first and I'll help him to get through it, and that he won't be in trouble for getting angry - just to tell me so I can help him with a solution. But unfortunately he rarely comes to me first. Sometimes if I catch him when he's still 6 feet from the sibling he's about to attack, and tell him many times over (as quickly as possible!) that he needs to come tell me first, and to remember our "plan", he sometimes will come - if he's not *that* angry. but it really only occasionally works - and usually when he's doing the least damage.

Yesterday he had his 5yo sister over on the floor and was sitting on her head (going up & down on her), kicking and stomping her in the head. It was awful to find him doing that. I had to physically pick him up and remove him from off her - and at already over 42lbs, he's getting heavy AND strong. And then today he threw her across the floor and she landed on the back of her head - quite a nasty fall. it's really making life hard for my daughter and she gets quite sad about it.

BUT I've *never* once got him to admit it was wrong. He says "It was very good of me to hurt her" etc. I can tell him till I'm blue in the face, and he never budges.

Hello Grace05

I don't know if you have had the chance to take a look yet, but I would like to recommend the book 'Congratulations, Your child is strange'. It is available for free download at ASDStuff.com It covers alot of stuff about meltdowns, what causes them, and how to prevent them. As it seems your problem is being caused by meltdowns, I recommend taking some time to read it through. It may benefit you.

I am currently in the process of rewriting it (got myself an editor), so I am afraid I don't have the new and improved version, but I think the old version will still be helpful.

Grace_05
Timeouts never worked for us - same as you our son would never stay so the only person who learned anything from the experience was me and the lesson I learned is that timeouts don't work with some kids. It never helped teach him ANYTHING. So I stopped trying.
It really sounds like you should not leave your 5 yo alone with your son EVER. She is going to get seriously injured. Please for her sake, don't leave them unattended together!
AS kids have a problem with executive functioning, this means that they are often not using the rational/analytical part of their brain that allows them to consider various alternatives and make good choices. THis is especially true when they are upset, they go into fight or flight mode and they are only reacting not making concious choices. I think your son is trying to tell you this. You have to work with him when he is calm and give other choices for handling his anger. Coming to you and telling you is probably too complex. One thing we did for a while was have a "calming box". the box was kept where he could get it easily and it contained things that could help him calm, squishy balls, trio toys and other things he liked.
And read Tracker's book - it is full of good info!

getting him to go on time outs has been a fight. first, sitting on a chair does not work for him. our time outs started off standing in the corner with nose on the wall. yes he tried to leave. i stood behind him facing the other way and kept putting him back there. it was incredibly frustrating and difficult on both of us. it took months. maybe longer. i decided i wasn't going to give in because 1) it would be like giving him a liscence to do whatever he so pleased and blame it on his AS and 2) it is important for the other kids to see that he isn't getting away with things just because he thinks differently and to know that i am doing what i can to protect them from him. as hard as it was getting him to get into the groove of time out he knows now and sometimes he will go there on his own when i ask him what he did because he knows he's done something wrong. not too often, but sometimes. in the process of getting him to do his time outs there were times when he attacked me physically, where he punched or picked holes in the wall and where he'd hit himself in an attempt to avoid having to get to do it. i could have easily given up but then i could not find another appropriate punishment as he could not care less if i took his toys or he lost priveleges.

so when it comes to protecting the other kids, their safety comes first. well, everyones safety. when i am not able to supervise their play i do one of two things, depending on how the day is going for SS. if he is being fairly co-operative i take him with me wherever i go and keep him with me when i'm doing the laundry or making dinner or whatever. i can't watch everything all the time. i am only one person and i have 4 kids and a house to run. i have a lock on his bedroom door. i will put him in there if i can't get work done while he is with me or if he doesn't want to stay with me. sometimes he'd rather go in there. i know i will probably get attacked but whatever, i was told to do this by his worker because he tried to smother my youngest son to death on one occasion over a stuffed toy and on another occasion attacked my 4yo with a knife. so he goes in his room and the door is locked. he is in there, safe and happy. he was not to pleased with this idea when it started but he's okay with it now. i also lock the door when i am sleeping for everyones safety as he will come out in the night and find things to hurt people with or things he can hurt himself with, or flood the bathroom or smash people in the face who are sleeping. he has lots of things to do in his room, no tv but lots of magnets and different blocks and cars, ect. he knows i'll let him out if he needs something or needs the bathroom or as soon as i can. this saves alot of problems and alot of worry. he still does attack when he feels he is justified in it but at least i am there to intervene and can usually get there before it gets too bad.

Where did he get the idea that the punishment for doing the wrong thing is physical?


I wasn't a violent child but my older sister usually wouldn't pass up the chance to sock me. If my mother caught any of my siblings in the act of violence they would get grabbed by the arm hard and she would say in a stern, raised voice "Hey! We don't (hit, scratch, bite, whatever) in this family! Do you understand me? You don't touch (her/him) again!"

And that was usually enough, at least for a few days.

If it happened enough and she got tired of it she'd just tell us to hit the offender back.

How do you currently respond to his violent behavior against his sister?
What does she do when he attacks her? Does she try to defend herself at all? She should if she doesn't.

If this has been so frequent that she's missing enough hair, then I don't understand why you allow them to play so close. Until you find a way to resolve this situation I think you need to treat this like you would if you had a dog with poor nerves around children. He needs to stay within your sight and however many feet away from her. If he tries to get closer you are to stop him and if you decide it's ok for him to proceed, you need confirmation from him that he's going to be good.

On another note, I wouldn't be so quick to blame things on sensory issues. They are not the explanation for everything. Children with AS/ASD can be bad for the mere fact that they are children, just like every other child, and do need to learn boundaries and limits and right and wrong.

I used to be very aggrisive towards my siblings too and my parrents implemented a no touch rule... I was not allowed to touch tham at all for any reason. That actually worked pretty good. Of course when we got older we learned to verbally fillet each other...but they did not do much about that.

This^^ I feel so sorry for your poor little girl!

We had a similar situation with our twin sons (both ASD & OCD), but it was mutual violence towards each other. I was seriously worried that they would kill each other one day. I can only say what worked for us.
1. Never ever leaving them alone unattended. Seriously. Never. If I went to the kitchen, one of them had to come with me to the kitchen. If I took a shower, one of them had to bring a toy and play on the bathroom floor (or I'd wait until my husband was home).
2. Immediate punishment for any form of violence no matter how small. My sons "currency" at the time was Thomas trains. If you committed an act of violence you lost one train. A day with absolutely no violence would earn one train back. Once the trains were gone, we moved on to the second favourite toy (super hero toys). At one point they had almost no toys left, and I thought it would never work and almost gave up, but that was the point when the motivation kicked in. They wanted their toys back badly! And that's when the tides turned. (note: did not take away comfort items, which at the time were blankies and a specific soft toy)
3. Didn't allow any play fighting, wrestling or any other contact play. It would always trigger violence. Our rule was "only touch with hands of love". For a long time they simply couldn't touch each other at all (too intense from a sensory POV, would trigger violence)
4. Taught alternatives for when angry. Read books, made visual reminders, did a form of Social Stories. Went over what to do when you're angry again, and again and again and again.
5. Set them up for success. Be there to catch them the moment before the violence happens, or better yet before the anger escalates if possible. Give verbal reminder, take them to the visual reminder (we had a poster of safe things to do when you're angry on the play room wall), read the social story, redirect them to a safe anger activity (punching a pillow, ripping paper, saying "no" in a loud voice etc.). Tried to walk them through the successful steps as often as I could, before it got to violent mode.
6. Reward. If I saw them spontaneously doing the self calming/safe anger choices I would reinforce it with tonnes of praise and a reward to reinforce it.
7. Made sure they got alone time. Our sons need their own space...lots of it! They each have their own room, which the other is not allowed to enter without express permission. They also have belongings that no one else is allowed to touch, and we try to make the rules for the shared things and space very, very clear.

For us this was a process. It took a long time and a lot of effort, but it did eventually work.

I had a meltdown at elementary school once where I chased my younger sister (by 1.5 year) across the school with a previously broken broomstick.

I remember not admitting I was wrong, but definitely was very embarrassed about it later. My meltdowns on family members were rare; that frustration usually went out on bullies.

My time-outs were usually to my personal bed-room, and being told to "come-out when you are done crying". I would kneel over onto the edge of the bed and cry; was usually left to my own devices when I got out.

So instead of a chair, try a designated room. I never got traumatized of using my bed room. Till now, no anxieties of mine, follow me past a good nap. Though they do reemerge once I come into contact again. (like trying to sit down and study for a college exam; beyond doing assigned homework).

Thanks so much for all the kind and very helpful replies. I must apologise for not replying sooner, but life is just so busy! Anyway, I don't suppose I can comment on everything said, but will try to answer/address as much as possible!

We have no idea! He began acting violent around the age of 2 - long before his sister was ever cross/fighting with him at all, really! she was really good/kind to him, and has really only started fighting back in more recently months, after getting fed up with him! But the violence started when his baby brother was born (just after his 2nd birthday). I assumed it was normal 2yo jealousy and didn't think much of it, just tried to keep his brother safe. He would try to do things to his eyes when he was only a couple weeks old (prob just normal curiosity) but later started sitting on top of him, pushing him over, hitting him, etc. He continued this sort of behaviour against his brother for over a year (14-16 months or so), without any obvoius provoking/reason. It really confused us. then he gave his brother a break it seemd. But it reappeared a few months later in the form of pay-back. He doesn't hurt him "for no reason" anymore, but he'll injure him if he is annoyed. Sadly my younger son (2yo) *has* started fighting back, since about age 18-20 months and sometimes it ends up worse off, as my 4yo son gets even *more* annoyed if he thinks someone has done something against him.

But *why* he thinks everything needs to be dealt with violently, I have no idea! Yesterday his baby sister of 7 months was playing with a 1yo friend and my baby daughter bumped into the friend (being a wobbly baby still! and made the 1yo fall over. So my son made a fist and tried to push it into his baby sister's side! We try and tell him she's only a baby (as telling him something is an accident is pointless!) but he just argues forever that she did the wrong thing, was naughty, etc! Makes me feel like I'm going crazy!! argh!



Yes, I am coming to realise that this is probably true. Just FYI tho, the recent incidents were rather more violent than before. He just gets stronger and more agressive, it seems. Most of the time he's pulling her hair, or scratching her. AND many times I think it could be prevented if his sister would actually come to me rather than arguing with him, OR wouldn't fight back when he takes something from her - but tell me first. So, in a way, her becoming more of a fighter has made problems worse. Of course, NOT her fault. But she's not a good enough fighter, if you see what i mean. She gets overpowered by him, so whilst she does fight back, she still gets hurt. And once he gets hold of her hair, she seems pretty much under his control. At least she seems to think so. I guess she's just not the sort of person to actually *really* hurt someone else, just enough of a fight to annoy him and make him more violent, iyswim.

I also feel bad having to keep him under my eye the whole time, as he had this for soooo long when he suffered from severe eczema and ripped his skin to pieces. so he was really watched all the time, and it was quite stressful for all involved. I guess it's just been such a relief that his skin improved and he stopped scratching it all the time, so that he can actually play upstairs without me having to worry about his skin. However, it seems as soon as he was OK with not hurting himself, it was hurting others we had to worry about.

Also, he can sometimes go several hours being with his sister/brother and not hurt them. So it seems a shame to have to keep them apart (as they do enjoy each others company) and I don't know that either of them would want to be separated from each other. Hence why I'd really like to find some way to stop/limit the violence. But rest assured, I DO realise/appreciate that my daughters and son must be kept safe, regardless of the lengths we must go to.

I continue to tell my son to come to me with problems first so i can help him sort them out. But he doesn't seem to remember yet, or doesn't always want to. Sometimes if I see a problem building up, I will remind him of our plan to tell me, and sometimes it works. But just not enough of the time. I do try to give him plenty of praise when he complies, which does make him happy. I have a chart where we keep track of everytime he comes to me instead of hurting someone and he does get excited when we get a good mark. But overall, reward charts just make him frustrated. When we had to take note of an offense in the past, he actually told me he wanted to go and hurt someone so he could get a bad mark. So we decided to only keep track of the good things, so it was a positive thing. But not sure the motivation is enough.



Thanks so much for this! The book looks wonderful and full of helpful advice. To be honest, I believe the best books about autism/aspergers are those written by those on the spectrum themselves! I want to be able to get the best idea of what my son is thinking/experiencing as possible, so I am most thankful for those who have taken the time and trouble to write and tell us parents what it's like for our children. I really appreciate it! I've already started reading it, and had a quick scan through the book as well.

Combining what Bombaloo said about a "calming box" and what Tracker mentions in his book about a room/corner (sorry, can't remember the specifics) but I've decided to do something like that for my son! I think it sounds a wonderful idea. I will probably do it in his bedroom so he can have a quiet place to go from the noise of family life. I plan to buy a bean bag (or possibly an air filled "bean bag"?) for him to sit on (as he really struggles with sitting in a chair, always has hands on feet, as if there's some issue with dangling feet perhaps? always has hands on feet, even during meals - feet on table! :-/ ) Anyway, so I think a bean bag would be a better way for him to relax. and then today I went and bought a number of squishy/sensory sort of toys which he helped me pick out, including some balls with water/oil in them, including one he fell in love with which has 2 dolphins bobbing up & down inside! (in fact, he took it to bed!) so, hoping we'll soon have a quiet corner for him to hopefully calm down in when he's getting stressed. He told me he thought it would be good to have something he can squeeze/pinch instead of hurting someone. So maybe that's a start? if he's agreeing with me to find an alternative!

Unfortunately, he seems to find it difficult to actually form any lasting "like" for something. He is impulsive about wanting to buy lots of things, but by the end of the day he doesn't like them anymore. So for example, we picked out about 6 things from the shop to put in his "calming basket" (which he chose himself) but several hours later he had decided he only liked the 2 dolphin things because to him they were "a set"/matching. (he's rather ocd just now about clothing needing to be the same brand/matching colours to an extreme, toys matching, etc) So he started giving this toys to different members of the family - one to his brother, 2 to his baby sister, one to me, etc. And then had an empty basket and took his dolphin ball to bed! I guess I find it sad that he never likes/gets attached to things, which i guess is OK, but it means he gets bored too often and complains he has nothing to do ... and then gets up to trouble!

He had a stuffed toy cat that he cuddled in bed for months (since Nov last year) and only last week he tells me he doesn't like it anymore. something about the nose of the toy - he's really funny about noses, which I haven't totally worked out yet! Probably you all will tell me I'm worried too much about these things, and he should be free to not like anything if he doesn't want to (which is fine, i know!) but I guess I can't help but feel sorry for him, esp when he seems to actually be sad about it/things himself. Almost like he wishes he didn't think that way.

OK, I hope I've replied to the main points - but past midnight where I am, so must end this message so I'll feel alive to face the morning. And thanks again for all the helpful advice given.

Grace

Grace - sounds like you are making progress, good job! It takes time but I bet you'll see some improvements. The beanbag chair sounds like it will be good for him. I've thought about getting one of those too. Don't worry if he's not too attached to particular things, you might actually consider yourself lucky - sometimes I feel like I spend half my life looking for the one particular HotWheels car that DS is currently attached to. He often won't go to bed or leave the house until he has the one car that is his current favorite and believe me, none of the other 50 cars he has will do when he wants his favorite one.

On letting the kids have time together, maybe schedule a specific length of time during the part of the day when he seems to be at his best and then when that time is over either have him be with you where you can observe him or in his room where he can play by himself and self-soothe or somewhere separate from the other kids. Sorry if my earlier post sounded alarmist. I have seen my DS hit his older brother on the head with hard objects before, almost to the point of drawing blood. This has happened when they seemed to be playing well together then in an instant, the peace turns into mayhem. We limit the time they spend playing in each other's rooms and separate them at the first signs of escalation. Like you, I have been trying to impress upon the NT sibling his role in the situation. While I try to never scold him because he is (almost) always the one who gets the brunt of the physical aggression, I try to explain that he can do things differently and then he wouldn't get hurt. As soon as he or she is old enough, the NT sibling needs to take responsibility for recognizing the AS sibling's escalation cues just like we as parents do.
Hang in there!

I dont know if this will help you but I have an 8 year old Aspie son and a 6 year year old Autie daughter. My son has suddenly developed a lot of anger issues. This is due to the fact that we moved and he is having troubles with some of the kids at school. Also I have been ill and we have not had our schedules in place for quite some time. The last straw was when my son tried to choke my daughter. I have never allowed my kids to hit each other. The only time my autie would hit was in extreme meltdown mode and we would simply remove her and give her sensory input like squeezes or just contain her to a small space where she couldnt hurt herself. Luckly this has stopped and she never reaches this point anymore. Recently we decided to implement a new discipline type method. We have tokens (you can use stones, toothpicks...anything) and we have two jars. When my kids do the things we want them to do. Pick up clothes, dishes, make bed, brush teeth, put on shoes, ect they get a token. When they do negative things like throw their clothes on the floor and not pick up, when my son yells when we ask him to turn off his game (after his time is up) then they loose a token. If they hit, push, bite or in anyway physically harm anyone they loose five tokens. Tokens are used for extra video game time for my son and they can also turn in for more time at the park or they can use them for toys or candy ect at the store, like money. My autie really does not understand the concept but loosing a token is a huge deal to her. Since your son is so worried about doing the "wrong" thing...maybe the loss of a token would work. I would not threaten him with a loss of a token during a meltdown though. Wait until later when he calms down if you chose to try this. Also make sure that you protect your daughter....grab her and protect her with your own body if you have to and tell your son that he is not allowed to hurt anyone, ever!
My daughter used to grab at peoples faces during meltdowns as well and as I said we would remove her or protect anyone she was fixated on.
Its just very important that you make him understand that harming other people is wrong....give him a stuffed animal to beat up or a pillow and try to teach him to use these things. Its ok to be angry, its not ok to hurt other people!
You may want to look up eardefenders for him to wear if you think he is being overwhelmed by noise....I also found some ear plugs that musicians wear that you can hear people talking but you can not hear background noise.
Anyway, good luck and I hope you can come up with a good solution because abuse is abuse even if he is only four!