Manipulative behavior/arguing

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Our son is almost nine and has Asperger's. One of our biggest issues is determining which behaviors are AS-related and really not much in his control, and which ones are him just being a bright, opportunistic kid. He seems "clever" enough to want to argue with us over every little household rule or responsibility and be extremely manipulative - but not socially adept enough to understand that people don't LIKE feeling manipulated, and in fact often get upset when they feel they're being manipulated. AND they don't forget about it in ten minutes, like he seems to. If you are rude to someone, for instance, they're likely not going to want to play with you ten minutes from now. He can't see how his behavior will look to others. For instance, last night he was supposed to brush his teeth before bed. He went into the bathroom and shut the door. Upon seeing this, his father immediately knew something was up - we don't shut the bathroom door just to brush our teeth. He waited outside the door for a few moments, then opened it quickly, and sure enough - caught the little guy with his toothbrush in his mouth, but no toothpaste, and the expression of a cat beside an empty fish bowl. When his dad instructed him to use toothpaste, he immediately started whining "But WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?" He KNOWS why. He just didn't want to do it.

Can any other parents here shed some light on this? We don't want to just gloss over/excuse his bad behaviors and say "Oh, he's got a disability" or something and not expect anything from him. I had a brother with a slight case of Tourrette's and our mother let him get away with bloody murder and would always say, "Well, he's just a sick little boy." And he grew up spoiled and selfish and now has spoiled, selfish, mean kids.

But we also don't want to try to force our son to do things he's simply not capable of.

It's so hard sometimes to tell which is which - what's AS-related stuff he can't really control or explain, and what's him just being a bit of a typical bratty, opportunistic, manipulative third grader?

I'm often accused of being manipulative when I'm not trying to be, and often when i'm trying to do something entirely different from what i'm told i'm trying to manipulate someone into.

Furthermore, aspies are often considered rude when they don't see something the least bit offesnive in their behavior, AND may have even spent a few hours thinking up a ploite, nonoffensive conversation starter that you took as an ignorant insult.

Our son seemed to somewhat manipulative as a real little guy. He couldn't pull it off very well at home, so he would try it more at school with sweet, sympathetic teachers. When we would hear about it, we would tell the teachers how we would handle things at home, and when we all had a united front he became less manipulative over-all.

Whether the manipulative behavior is just typical kid brattiness, or a part of being on the autism spectrum, it doesn't really matter. The end result is people not liking the child, and the child growing up not being able to be flexible enough to do well at school, work, home, etc. Whatever happens, it's just not good for a child to be manipulative, so you have to really work hard to get them to see the error of their ways. So, whenever he's manipulative, SHOW that you are angry with him. If you don't, somebody in his future will. TELL him that you are angry. Remind him that when he's manipulative, ANYONE will be angry with him. Then think of a way in which you COULD be manipulative with him, and then tell him why you don't do that.

You may have to work for a long time on this. But so do some NT parents. Some really bright kids resort to manipulating to get out of work, to see how far they can push people, to control their environment. Whatever the reason they do it, it's important for their future that they be taught early on why it's not a good idea.

As far as forcing your son to do things that he may or may not be capable of, I can understand your reticence about this issue. But this is another autism spectrum issue -- often, because of some perfectionism, kids on the spectrum don't want to try a new experience because they are afraid of not doing it perfectly the first time. Again, in some ways it doesn't really matter much what the cause of the reticence is, because life is full of having to do things that you either don't like or are afraid of doing, and you just have to do them anyway. With our son, we try to show him situations in which WE are afraid, but do something anyway. We try to do things that he is afraid of/doesn't want to do in very small increments. And we just don't give up -- we keep pushing until he can achieve the thing that he doesn't want to do. Often, he is very happy that he achieved the thing. This worked with learning how to swim. Now there are other things that we have given up on -- for example, any kind of group sports -- because that IS a thing that is difficult for him to do as a result of his ASD tendencies.

I agree that it is very hard to tell what is AS related and what is not. It is very hard when they are younger, because they can't explain things. But it does improve, and as their ability to explain things improves, so does your ability to distinguish between AS related stuff and not AS related stuff.

Kris

I have no kids, but can give you my point of view on this one.
"He knows why" isn't necessarily true. Yes, I'm sure he knows he's supposed to use toothpaste, but maybe he doesn't understand why. (I ask why all the time, my husband has learned to just explain it to me, I'm not trying to be difficult, just don't understand.) Have you explained to him how toothpaste works?
Also, it sounds like there's something he really doesn't like about his toothpaste. The taste may be too strong or something, discuss it with him. Maybe he can pick a flavor he thinks he would like better. (There's all kinds of weird kiddie toothpaste flavors nowdays.)

As far as "why" goes, "because I said so" isn't a good enough answer for us. Answer the why's, and be prepared, they may never end.

because I said so is the most guaranteed way to get him to think you are mad at him because you don't like him, and not upset because you want him to have good teeth and he isn't following the steps needed.

Have you ever tried asking him why he doesn't want to use toothpaste? Zghost has some good points. I know i personally can't stand the flavor mint. Which greatly prohibits me when it comes to choosing toothpastes and mouthwash. Citrus isn't much better than mint either.

I agree with others that he has an issue with toothpaste - some don't taste very good at all - maybe you need to help him find a flavor that he really loves.

I don't believe Aspergers is ever an excuse for bad behavior. It is a reason why sometimes these kids behaviors seem bad though. Our son (age 10) is a great kid and pretty compliant with our rules, etc. but he often does something that he truly does not understand is a very important thing to learn NOT to do. Example: we had breakfast Sunday morning at a restaurant and he proceeded to place 1/2 (I am not kidding) of his pancake in his mouth without cutting it. Of course he's 10 and a boy doesn't care a lick about dining etiquette but my husband and I feel he should eat like a human being not a jackal. We told him to cut his pancake and not do it again...he did it again! Then there was a little blow up and he stopped eating and was silent the rest of the meal. We took his pancakes home and his father told him very firmly why he needs to cut his food, showed him how and then he finished his pancakes. I know my son and I'm pretty sure he got the message.

I know we will have to revisit that behavior again (but what parent of NT kids don't have to repeat things 100 times before they sink in?) I think for my son his Aspergers may make some of his choices seem "bratty" or defiant (and sometimes they definitely are), but I believe this with all my heart and soul, the majority of the time it takes a little longer for him to "get" things - for that lightbulb to go on in his head.

If it does not make sense to my son or has no interest for him it will take longer for him to "get" it.

I once went to a conference on Aspergers and it said you can't have a dictatorship with an aspie kid. It will never work. Negotiation is the key to compliance if that is the goal.

Of course we (and his dentist) have explained to him why toothpaste is necessary. He actually hates brushing his teeth in general (what kid doesn't? I still hate it), and will do anything to get out of doing so. When we tell him it's to keep his teeth clean of tartar and food particles so they don't decay, he wails "BUT WHY can't I just have ONE NIGHT where I don't brush my teeth?" And if we do let him have one night without brushing (because true enough, one night won't kill him), he'll ask/insist/whine again for the same the next night, too. It seems like no matter how much we give in, it's never enough. So I admit, we've gotten a bit inflexible about certain things, because every time we try to "negotiate," it's a mess. He'll agree to do one thing, then do another thing entirely. He'll change his mind about the "deal" five minutes later - or an hour later, or a day later. If we fulfill our end of things first, he'll end up not doing his part in turn. That does feel manipulative.

For the record, we HATE having to say "Because I said so" and avoid it as much as possible. It only tends to come out when we've gone through the same argument/fight every night, and we've repeated ourselves a thousand times, and he's still whining "BUT WHYYY???" and honestly we are exhausted and just want compliance.

I've bought him whatever special flavor of toothpaste he asks for - the blue kind, bubblegum flavor, with the sparkles in it, even. Doesn't matter. I am willing to believe that he does find the taste a bit off-putting. He basically won't eat at home unless it's PB&J on "regular" bread, or a hot dog with ketchup on a CERTAIN kind of bun, or Kraft mac & cheese (god help the person who presents this child with home-made macaroni and cheese, lol), that kind of thing. His dad and I are both good cooks, but don't always have the time to do so. But when we do have sit-down meals, he basically hangs his head, has "one bite" of whatever, and says "I'm done." Then half an hour later, he's asking for PB&J.

Is this just a kid being a picky eater, or does he have some AS-related sensitivity to strong tastes? (Heck, when he was a little guy, he'd eat medium-heat salsa and still LOVES salt & vinegar potato chips - he'll eat those until his lips turn white if we let him.) It's a wonder he's healthy, but he's a skinny kid who is VERY active and has the energy of three kids sometimes. He seems quite healthy.

My point is, he may not love everything about his toothpaste (his FAVORITE, that he picked out), but he still has to brush his teeth. We just don't want a awful row over it every night.

Is it an Aspie trait to ask a question of vital importance, hear the answer, then (seemingly) forget it thirty seconds later? Or is that just "kids being kids"?

We're not trying to be mean parents, or clueless NTs (we're not), and we love our son all to little pieces. We think he's an amazing kid. But we're under incredible stress and anxiety ourselves and it's extremely difficult to relate to him sometimes, and apparently his teachers are unable to keep him "under control" and so for years now they've been breathing down our necks to "fix" him. Which makes us feel like horrible parents. We don't want him to feel labeled or different, but he is different and if we have to embrace a label (diagnosis) to get him accommodations at school or explain it to other parents, then so be it.

We just want less frustration in our house, for us and for him, as I know it's got to be frustrating for him, too. But honestly, for the most part, he seems unaffected by other people's emotions/needs. He could sit inside an emotional hurricane and just play with his little cars, oblivious. When he actually sees me crying, he MIGHT stop and ask if I'm okay. But I've also had times where I was being violently ill, and he still came up a minute after I wiped my mouth and told me to fetch him a sandwich. I wanted to KILL him, even though part of me tried to remember "he has trouble with empathy."

What we're trying to find here is some kind of happy medium. We don't want him to be spoiled, but we don't want to be hard-ass parents who aren't sympathetic, either. I guess that's a challenge all parents share.

When he came home from school today, I calmly sat him down and inquired about the tooth brushing. I asked him if he didn't like his toothpaste, for instance. He assured me no, no, he likes his toothpaste - "It's just I hate that I have to brush EVERY. NIGHT."

If he has sensory issues it probably hurts him to have his mouth touched or to have the toothpaste on his tongue. This isn't an excuse to avoid it. I'm surprised he says he likes his toothpaste given that he is so averse to teeth brushing.

With the things my son dreads, due to sensory reasons (haircuts, washing hair, brushing teeth) I explain to him that there are certain things human beings just have to do and it might be painful for him but the "bare basics" just have to get done-- like changing his clothes, brushing teeth, getting haircuts, and bathing.

I'm not saying your son isn't manipulative, but what you described about the tooth brushing doesn't seem manipulative. All kids, AS or not, will sometimes pretend to have completed something they really don't want to do. Even adults do this sometimes.

I have severe sensory issues and I remember the "fake toothbrushing" as a kid-- I did it a lot. Maybe if I had understood it was a sensory problem I would have been able to approach it with sa better awareness. I don't know.

This is my first post on here. I've recently found out that my 13 1/2 year old son has AS. I found this site through surfing around as in Aus there is not much information on it yet.

Anyway, my son has always been very manipulative /argumentitive / arrogant / lying and can empathise with exactly what you are saying. He in the past used to just lie to our faces, but in recent times tends to just want to argue with me full stop and try and pick at me with little things ie. I gave him a couple of keys the other days for our window locks as there are 2 different types of windows he needed 2 different keys. Of course son didn't want to see that there are 2 different types of windows and preceeded to tell me that I had given him the "wrong keys". Rather than just enquirying he comes out into full blown, you've done this or you've given me the wrong that....I don't know how I manage to keep my sanity sometimes! My husband is very supportive (he is not son's natural father) and also feels the pain of this.

Does it ever get any better?? The past two years he's forgotten both of our birthday's even though he was reminded the day before - I would love to just have some empathy from him occassionally.

Thanks for your comments, I appreciate them. I don't really think he is having sensory problems vis a vis the teeth brushing - I really think (just like NT kids, and even adults) he doesn't like doing it, and he will complain or try to be sneaky or get out of it in some way. I don't think this is "abnormal" or anything in and of itself, and perhaps it was a poor example of his argumentativeness.

I feel like we have to explain every little thing exhaustively, and half the time when we explain things to him, he doesn't seem to hear us. We may be willing to believe this is just part of his AS, but we know that in the "real world," people won't be so understanding. Perhaps that is the crux of our frustration, in many ways - that WE may love him and (mostly) understand, but others won't, and he'll have a very hard time in the world.

Mind you, having AS traits ourselves (both me and my husband), I do believe we are more sensitive to his issues than most people. However, we (his parents) are also socially awkward ourselves, and are very sensitive to loud noises, and feel overwhelmed a lot, and neither of our families understand our situation. This makes parenting a child who is very often loud, intrusive, insensitive, too touchy (I mean he touches us too much sometimes and it creeps us out, not talking about regular hugging/cuddling), etc extremely challenging for us. So on the one hand, our AS traits help us understand him and be more patient with him, but they also sometimes make already challenging parenting situations nearly unbearable.

I guess I'll just have to ask everyone to take my word for it that we're really doing all we can, and we really love our son, and don't think he's "broken" or defective or "bad." AS or not, we've both had extremely difficult childhoods ourselves, and that adds its own challenges to the situation. We just feel like other people (the schools especially) hold us responsible for his AS behaviors, and keep expecting us to miraculously "fix" him and make him stop talking so much, etc - stuff we have NO control over. That's been very hard, and it's made us question our worth as parents many times.

I think we're just in a really difficult situation in general, and haven't had much support up to now, from school or family or friends or "mental health professionals" who've been happy to write us a prescription for meds but haven't told us what resources were available in our city or saw to it we received them. Parenting is always hard, especially if you actually are TRYING and care about what you're doing. We just have a lot of stuff stacked against us. Which means we just have to work twice as hard. But that's exhausting, too, after awhile. Sometimes you just want a BREAK.

Your son sound SOOOO much like mine. I don't know what to suggest as I am having the same dilemmas that you are having, but I do understand where you are coming from. L argues about almost anything, doesn't pay enough attention to what we say to "remember" what we tell him (although he insists that we repeat ourselves and that he wants to know even after we have explained the same thing a dozen times) and can be very manipulative at times (and is aware he is doing so by his own admission...). At school he is very difficult, often disturbing the class, but fortunately he has a full time EA. Without the EA he couldn't function in the classroom (or they couldn't function with him ).

PersonalEnigma: A personal EA...it may come to that. Thanks for mentioning that. I'm going to add it to my list of things to discuss with the district reps.

Hi- I just discovered this site today, and was reading all the posts and replys to your initial question. First of all, I think you are doing a great job. We see a counselor every week, for my two daughters 10 and 12 yrs old. Both who are struggling. I was a complete wreck, because I felt I was at the end of my chain, and our counselor told me that it might take 6 months for them to get it, but to just be patient. She also said the only way for the kids to "get it" without manipulating them, is not to give them the chance to mess up. I noticed in your post, that you said you "told him to go brush his teeth" then when you went to check on him he was not using toothpaste.

Now I want to say we are in the midst of this ourselves, but our counselor told us that if you want your child to do something, you have to go and be with them, so they don't have the opportunity to mess around. I am wondering if you were to go with him to the bathroom, and stand in the door way- don't say anything to him, just be there, if he would not just make the right choice, and use the paste. If he proceeded to brush without paste- calmly remind him there isn't paste on the toothbrush. Don't tell him he forgot the paste, because he will say he didn't forget, which he probably did not forget. He is just making a choice not to use it. This will typically keep the meltdown at bay. Give them the power they think they have, but let him know you are on top of everything he is doing, and eventually he will think you are one step ahead of him, even if you aren't. The best way we have found, if a meltdown insues, ride it out. Let him know calmly that you understand his frustration, that he feels you don't give him any space, he may get really mad, but just stand there calmly, and wait for him to realize no matter how mad, defiant, beligerant, he gets, you are not going to back down. A rule is a rule.

As I read the posts, I knew there would be several say let him pick his toothpaste- if you are like us, we have had EVERY flavor ever made, and it doesn't matter- if he has it in his head that he doesn't want to use it, it could be his most favorite thing in the world, and he would still say he hates it. Let it slide off like water on a duck. That is definately an aspie.

Don't think you are a bad parent for having difficulty. You are doing the best you can. A bad parent wouldn't be out there looking for a way to help their child. They simply wouldn't care about the welfare and upbringing of the child. You are doing great. I too feel so overwhelmed about the little stuff that gets so blown out of proportion. I think it is just as hard to be the parent of an aspie as it is for the aspie themselves.

Hang in there you are doing a great job, don't give up- it is just an uphill battle that we have to face.

as far as the argumentative, manipulative sort of stuff goes~it's been a long road to get son to stop...he still gets this way when he's overly upset about something, but not all the time anymore( thank goodness !)
for our son, so much of it came down to him testing boundaries~ ie; if i ask mom if i can stay up late to watch tv, she might say yes.....if i ask mom if i can have cake for breakfast, she might say yes....if i ask dad if i have to clean my room,he might say no..............son took a LONG time to learn the concept of "sometimes". sometimes, we all do things that are out of the ordinary. we might let our kid stay up a little late if they're being "good"...we might treat ourselves to ice cream after work....we might hop and skip and jump through a parking lot...........son just couldn't get past the idea that sometimes the answer to a question changes. he'd keep asking hoping the answer would change. we'd get exasperated about the constant questioning. mostly what we did was work on OUR consistency. making certain that our answers remained consistent helped alleviate much of the problem. we also had to continually, gently remind son that asking the same question repeatedly over and over and over again would only get him in trouble . we told him that it didn't matter how many times he asked, the answer would still remain the same......
like i said, the arguments haven't stopped. but they've definitely decreased.

Ugh. Yes. My aspie son, who is just 5, does this. But what's worse is his father does the same thing. But he wants to have the same arguments over and over and over...in the beginning I thought he was just trying to annoy me (husband). Then I figured having the same stupid arguments over the same anxieties he has always had, gave him some kind of comfort. I asked him before why he does this...this is a man who is 36...and he says he figures if he asks the same thing over and over and over, the answer would change. My 5 year old is starting to show more and more of this as I mentioned above.