autistic kids and discipline

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At what stage of autism/aspergers would you not discipline your child due to misbehavior? Because I read of parents of a high-functioning autistic child who refuse to punish their child because they believe he "won't understand it". I read it in a article awhile back... but cannot re-find it...

But at what stage of autism/aspergers would you refuse to punish your kids because of something like this? Do kids with autism or aspergers really not understand punishment?

We understand punishment just fine. We run into trouble when we fail to understand just what exactly we did wrong. That happens surprisingly often. And then sometimes we do successfully realize that X is considered wrong but not have the faintest clue why, and conclude that we're at the mercy of arbitrary and capricious individuals and starting trying not to get caught rather than trying to conform.

It was really fun when I was punished for what other people had done... apparently I was supposed to have some influence over their behavior somehow.

But really, punishment is easy to understand. Someone in a position of authority is unhappy with something I've done. That's what punishment conveys and I certainly have no trouble decoding that signal.

At the center school where I work we start them as early as 3 and don't do high functioning. =P

That said, just be sure to be very clear and consistent, and you shouldn't have any problems following a fairly typical timeline. Lack of discipline is definitely not the right way, especially if it is a child who might actually have trouble understanding disciplinary actions. The last thing anyone wants is a developmentally delayed child who is big enough to cause serious trouble and has never been taught to listen or have any discipline.

Sometimes the language people use is unclear. There are many parents who do not believe in direct punitive measures at all (NT as well as AS.) There are parents who describe parenting as "correcting" rather than punishing - so it's difficult to determine from your example exactly what these parents mean by "punish."

Also, with a child on the spectrum, many of the behaviors that aren't socially acceptable (hand-flapping, meltdowns, even defiance) aren't a result of misbehavior but are due to a differently-wired brain. Punishing those behaviors won't reduce them and can even make them worse, because often the child isn't in control of those behaviors anyway - much of autism therapy involves trying to understand the root causes of the behaviors and address them from there,. I'm not sure what you mean by "stage," but this can be the same for a very "high-functioning" kid and a severely disabled kid; it can be true for a kid who's had lots of therapy or one who's just started out. It kind of depends on the individual and on the situation.

In short, most parents are doing their best with their kids - having a kid on the spectrum is a lot of work; I know I feel like I'm simultaneously parenting a child who's not easy and getting a quick-study degree in autism. If a parent says that a certain behavioral system works for their child, I would guess that they've found it after a lot of study, advice, and trial and error.

I understood punishment fine as a kid. I learned if you break rules, you get punished. If you do something wrong, you're punished, if you hurt someone rather it was an accident or not, you're punished.

I also remember getting punished for no reason. One time I got punished because this boy in my class was kicking my chair and I don't know why I got punished for telling the kid to stop. I am sure there was more to the story there but I was six then and that was my perspective I saw. Maybe it was how I said it or maybe it was the sound of my voice or I was supposed to deal with my chair being kicked or maybe I was supposed to move it. But it didn't really teach me anything then. I just thought it was unfair I got into trouble and I didn't do anything. I also remember it happened to another girl in my class. A kid started kicking her chair and she said "Stop kicking my chair" and the teacher said something to her and she walked to the back of the classroom and sat down. It didn't take me long to realize she was being punished. Now I am thinking the teacher had a rule against telling others to stop kicking your chair which is a silly rule. Who would like having their chair kicked? But I didn't understand then why she had to be in trouble.

Just as long as I was told why I was being punished, I knew. I also remember the time I got punished for getting upset because someone threw something and it hit me in the head. My teacher called me and had me sit down in front of her desk while we were all watching a video. I didn't even know I was in trouble. I just thought she wanted me to sit there. Then after school I asked her why she wanted me to sit there and she said something about me getting hit and I didn't. So that was a punishment I got I realized. I also remember another time I was on the playground and I was told to stand against the wall. I didn't really understand and I thought they were just playing but when I tried to leave, the duty lady and my teacher both told me to stay there. I didn't know why. Then they said I was in the area I wasn't supposed to be in and I still didn't understand why I was standing against the wall. Then I was told I was not to be in that area. I said I didn't know and they said I did know. I was just confused until I got back to class after recess when the teacher said I was in n area I wasn't supposed to be in. So rarely did I not know why I was being punished but I have always been told why.

I think autistic kids need to be told why they are being punished. eg. "Okay you are going to sit on the stairs for hitting your little brother in the car." Don't all kids need to be told anyway why they are being punished?

Last edited by League_Girl on 03 Sep 2011, 1:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

Punishment worked for me as well. The only time it was ineffective was when I was in the middle of meltdown (NO amount of punishment or reward or anything else could stop a fullblown meltdown).

I think this is overly simplified, misleading, maybe downright wrong.

But.

First, it is important to distinguish between punishment and discipline. All children need discipline, which is the teaching and enforcement of expectations. But discipline can be achieved without punishment. Smart discipline teaches and encourages without creating unnecessary stress for any of the parties involved.

Some problems that arise in this area when dealing with AS children are as follows:

1) The child may truly be unable to meet the expectations, or may misunderstand the expectations. In either instance, punishment would not increase the likelihood of compliance and is inappropriate. Parents are not always literal and precise enough for AS kids, or fully understanding of the child's ability, or inability, to apply rule A as explained in specific X, to the slightly different situation Y. Issuing negative consequences in these situations can actually be destructive, as you come to understand when you read some of the posts of adult members on this forum.

2) The consequences may trigger other uncontrollable reactions in the child, such as meltdowns, etc. As a result, consequences have to be chosen with care. Issuing a consequence simply because you feel that it is your job to do so as a parent can actually backfire with an AS child.

3) The rule may not make sense to the AS child, in which case their logic pretty much requires them to fight it. This really a matter of teaching, of getting down into the heart of why you want the child to follow the rule, and getting them to understand it. Many of us have discovered that our AS kids are natural rules kids, ie they believe in and want to follow rules, as long as they truly buy into the reason behind the rule. For some kids, then, the main method of discipline is really to market and sell the rules to them.

Ultimately, pretty much any child is capable of willfully breaking the rules at some point in some way, ASD or not, in which case it is the parent's job to teach the child that life doesn't take kindly to that. The question isn't really if the parent should be using some form of discipline, more than what that discipline should look like.

There isn't going to be bright line that says if your child functions at level X, you can use method B. In all cases you have to take the time to know your child, and truly consider what that one unique individual does and does not understand, and what that one unique individual will respond best to.

I agree with much that DW_a_mom has already said.

Discipline and AS is not an easy combination. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be discipline. But:

i) discipline should be last resort - often better planning, rules etc can avoid the need to discipline - avoidance is always the better option

ii) there need to be clear rules which the child understands. These rules cannot be vague or open to interpretation.

iii) any rules must be fair and reasonable

iv) ABOVE ALL - do not discipline behaviour which cannot be avoided - eg stimming, meltdowns.

DW has made excellent points as always but I need to add in here - even when you make rules and set expections and enforce consequences - it can and will backfire in ways that can humble you.

When my daughter was four she was very well aware of the 'no hitting rule'. And she was also familiar with the time out corner. That day when her cousin pissed her off, I saw her arm go back and gave her the stern 'don't even think it look', and she acknowledged it, looked back to her cousin, looked at the timeout corner and hauled off and smacked her cousin anyway then put herself in time out. She crossed her arms, yelled 'four minutes' and turned around and faced the wall because she wanted to stay angry. That was her last time out BTW. And she never hit her cousin again.

Setting rules and discussing them worked so much better. Some parents are shocked that I 'negotiate' with my daughter. With small stuff, yes, I do. Especially when she makes a very good, well thought out counter arguement that I honestly can't argue with. Her logic can be quite infallible. But the big things - the hard lines in the sand - they are non negotiable. I still discuss them and clearly outline them and entertain each and every question she may have but she knows there are things that are not acceptable. Many times these need examples. Hitting required digging through her memories of when her cousin hit her and guiding her through the emotions and the physical pain of it and walking her through the concept of how that was how other people felt too. Rules just require that you help them connect all the logic dots. Once those connections are made - thats it. A rule is a rule end of story.

I couldn't help but smile at this - oh so familiar.

I also understood punishment as a child, but the thing is that I got spankings, those were the 70s and 80s and I was afraid of my parents because of that. I was always afraid of my parents anyways, so I'd behave out of fear, instead of respect. It also got to the point where I was afraid to talk about my special interests to anybody. If this was 1991 and I was on WP, I wouldn't even be posting about what my special interests were, because I would have been very paranoid.

League Girl, your stories offer a very interesting and helpful perspective on this discussion: sometimes parents and teachers can't see how things are being interpreted, how some things are missed and others taken the wrong way. I thought I might offer my take on what happened to you - let me know if you think I'm on track. For instance, in this story - was it during a test, perhaps?

There are times when a teacher expects the entire class to be silent, and the teacher will correct any child who speaks up (some teachers when I was a kid, required children to raise their hands silently if they needed help, ) However, teachers should observe when another child is causing the disruption.

This happens often to kids on the spectrum: since they sometimes don't know the big picture of the interaction, they are the ones the adult sees, and they often take the blame for a complex interaction started by someone else. My son (and husband) would get teased until they exploded and would then get punished by teachers.



This sounds to me like it wasn't punishment; the teacher may well have been trying to remove you from a bad situation to a safe one - but since she didn't explicitly say so, you made the assumption that you were being punished.



I am guessing two things happened here: playground rules were offered just before the first recess in a noisy, chaotic environment when you were distracted and didn't hear them...and the "forbidden area" didn't have any kids in it, so it was a natural place for a kid on the spectrum to go. "You know because I told you so" is a common mistake of parents and teachers with any kid, let alone kids on the spectrum: we need to make sure to check for understanding, too.

It was while the teacher was talking. We were all sitting in our chairs and the teacher was sitting in front of us in her chair and then all of a sudden this boy kept kicking my chair and I would tell him to stop. He was doing it right in front of her and she didn't seem to care. Then when I was seven, the same thing happened to the other girl, this other boy started kicking her chair and she said "Stop kicking my chair" and she got punished. But me, she didn't punish me right away when I kept telling the boy to quit it. Then I remember the teacher saying something to me but I don't remember what. Then when he did it again I told him to stop and I got in trouble. It's still stupid to punish someone over that, punish the kicker.


The play ground situation, the teachers told me I knew because I had been at that school for two years. But I don't remember being told to not ever be in that area. Maybe I was supposed to know on my own or they assumed I knew but they didn't know either. But I remember being told that just means I didn't know, nothing to do with AS or anything.

The kicker was disrupting you, but not disrupting the class. And he was kicking your chair, not you. So technically what he was doing was annoying, but it probably was not against any official rules. If you had raised your hand, and when acknowledged said, "I can't concentrate because Johnny is kicking my chair," then he would have been censored and monitored, and you would not have gotten in trouble. These are tough distinctions to absorb because it requires you to see everyone else's perspective in the situation. You don't get a pass on breaking the rules just because someone else is driving you nuts; that is a concept my son has a lot of trouble with, but it is important to learn. It gets complicated because what an Aspie might see as a huge disruption doing them harm, that they assume gives them a right to defend themselves, might be a complete non-issue to an NT; they don't get why it bothered you so much in the first place. As momtosparky pointed out, this whole area can be VERY unfair to Aspies.

The boy was doing it very hard so how would that not bother anyone? If I were the teacher and I all of a sudden heard "Quit," I would ask what is going on and the kid would tell me what the other kid is doing and I would tell the student to stop. If it kept happening, I would have separated them both. But it depends on the situation, if there were contradicting sides to the story and it didn't add up, I would just separate them because I wouldn't know who the victim is and who is lying so I would try and be fair. But if it was about chair kicking, I would tell the student to stop and if he didn't stop I would send him to the office or out in the hall or to the back of the room.

I still think the whole thing was absurd how my teacher handled it. What if someone wanted to pinch me and I yelled ow? Should I get in trouble for reacting to the pain? That's how ridiculous this all is.


Sure there are other options like, move your chair, get up and stand away from the group if you can't move your chair, but if the teacher had a rule against that too, you're screwed and it's Murphy's Law. But I didn't think of this stuff when I was six. Back then where I sat I stayed there so I didn't know there were other options like getting up and moving my chair but there were other kids next to me so that would have been impossible so I could have gotten up and stood.

And wouldn't kicking another chair be disrupting because you could hear it and that used to distract me in class when I see it. Wouldn't that be disruptive or can kids actually tune that out? Lot of people are bothered by squeaking chairs when you rock in them so they tell the person to stop so kicking them would make sounds too. This all still doesn't make sense.

To someone with sensory issues it will never make sense, I see that, but the NT world assumes that most people can handle certain levels of noise and annoyance and, when they can't, that they should buck it up and learn how to. Now, it is entirely possible that child was a bully trying to get you into trouble, but it is also possible that he was a sensory seeker unaware of what he was doing. Without everyone sitting down to breakdown the situation shortly after it happens, we'll never know.

I remember a similar conversation on another board here, where someone yelled at the person in line behind them at a store for hitting them with their cart. The other shoppers got mad at the person who yelled, not the person being careless with their cart. The social rule requires that you react in proportion or with deceleration to the harm, and preferably in a way that doesn't draw anyone else into it. Escalating the situation makes you look like you can't control your temper.

All of which illustrates why it is so very important for adults to deconstruct these situations with the child. It is unfortunate that something like this is left to fester. You are married, holding a job, and raising a child - but still left trying to understand discipline situations from childhood. They should have had this conversation with you then, instead of simply issuing the consequence.

Which I think is the point some of us have tried to make in response to the OP's question. In many situations, the most effective discipline with an AS child is breakdown, detailed, analysis and explanation.