Violence from 8yo

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Having another bad day with her. In fact, for no reason (no changes or anything to upset her) she's particularly bad this last week.

I've already had her throw her slipper in my eye in the past, bite, punch and kick me in the past, throw other things at me before. Today, after being totally ODD for no reason other than that she wanted to rebel, she decided to throw her hair comb at me and it hit me in the lip, so I now have a section of fat lip. She also threw a hard plastic bowl at me, luckily I managed to dodge that. She's also been chasing after me, when I've made it clear that it was enough, trying to whip me with towels and garments.

I know they say you hurt those nearest to you, but this is too much. The doctors refused to give her medication. She told me she is taking her anger out on me. Great. I've already previously told her if she feels angry to punch her pillow to get it out. So now I've had to send her to her bedroom for a long time. There was no logical reason, no sensory reason, no change to routine, no illness, nothing. She just felt like being violent towards me.

She is very ODD, which I did raise during her assessment, but they put nothing on paper. I read someone (a parent) once said they didn't believe ODD behaviours were a separate diagnosis when a child has AS, that it's just a part of the AS. I disagree, and I think they should have diagnosed her with ODD and should have listened to me and considered medication.

I'm thinking of maybe finding a private doctor who will look at her behaviour and consider prescribing medication. The NHS won't listen to me, and she needs something to calm her down.

I wish I knew what to tell you. Can you narrow it down in any way? Are there any common triggers at all (even if it is something obvious like not getting her way about a certain thing/s) or does it seem completely random? Any issues we have (all at school, by the way) with violence is after he has already entered meltdown mode about not wanting to do something/or wanting to do something special interest-y, or having his feelings hurt by someone.

If there is no rhyme or reason for it maybe it is that she is so overwhelmed with holding it in at school (We don't have this problem--our son lashed out at school--for better or for worse) that she needs somewhere to dump all that stored up rage.

I would suggest, if that seems to be the case, asking for more accommodations at school to keep her general stress level down. If she has less stressful school days, then maybe she won't need this release at home.

Thanks ASDMommyASDKid. She's home-educated so it's nothing school related. (Although we will have that joy soon as she is shortly to start school, which she seems unfazed by as she keep telling me she won't have any problems! I wish.)

She just doesn't want to do the most basic things. Even telling her it's time to get washed and dressed starts her off like this. It is a sort of pre-meltdown state I believe, but how will she survive in school if she can't bear being told it's time to do something!

We're just ending end of term holidays (I keep to the same school holidays even though we're home-educating!) and every so often she pipes up "I really don't want to do learning on Monday, because it's learning again". But I don't think it's this as this worse behaviour has been more than a week now, and if she is so resistant to learning I dread how she will manage at school, when they have 6 odd hours of it. She's been to school before, so she knows what to expect, but her traits seem to be getting worse the older she gets.

Many of us have been through this - and I, too, thought my son had some kind of different diagnosis (he would be up and down so frequently I thought Bipolar.) In our case, using techniques similar to the ones described in the webinar posted here worked: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt228348.html We also spent a lot of time teaching DS to identify his feelings before they got out of control, and also teaching him to take a break when he was starting to ramp up (isolation usually helps in his case.)

Last year, it clearly took him every ounce of strength and every technique in the toolkit to stay nonviolent. This year, he's had no real difficulty - it seemed to have a developmental aspect to it (DH remembered a similar pattern in his own childhood.)

There are a couple different places in the Parenting Index stickied at the top of the board of threads with other parents in your same situation. Take a look; I think there's lots of useful information there.

I am so sorry this is happening - I know from experience how frightening, frustrating and difficult it is. Hang in there.

first off, getting the anger out by punching anything is more likely to make it worse. The act releases endorphins (aka. reward hormones) in the brain, thus the person will want to get angry again. The best way is to focus the anger into something other than violence, eg. blowing baloons and letting them go.

How fluent is the communication between you two? Does she have problems at school?

she says that she's taking the anger out on you, have you ever considered asking her why she's angry?

Many parents drop on the drug wagon before looking at themselves. No offence, but the problem may be you. How do you handle the situation? Do you help her try to sort out feelings? Are you supportive and there for her when she needs to discuss problems?

Again, letting her beat the pillow makes her like being angry, so she might be angry just for the hell of it, also throwing your stuff at you is not okay, but she might be doing it just to get you both fired up, or at least she found out that it presses a button in you somewhere....

Listening to critique of your parenting is hard, but friends and family may see something in the relationship between you two that you don't, this can get you closer to a solution that does not involve expensive drugs (remember, LAST resort). Know that your doctor with his loooong education said no for a reason...

as for the postulate about liking to be angry in the first line, just google out the scientific papers about it. I'm very confident that you will find many science papers with many more references out there.

Thanks momsparky, I will check those out. I think part of my OP wasn't worded properly. She definitely is autistic, but I think she has ODD too, and I have read I think on the National Autistic Society that it's a co-morbid in some autistic children.

We communicate very fluently. As I said in my previous post, she is home-educated. Yes I have asked her why she is angry and why she behaves like that many times and she just says "I don't know". I offer her every opportunity to discuss how she feels and why. I also acknowledge her feelings and comfort her.

The problem isn't me. She is like it with her sister and her dad too, but because I do the child-caring I am the one bearing the brunt. I'm not pretending to be a perfect parent, but one of those doesn't exist. She is autistic - autism is not caused by parenting styles as you should know yourself!

If punching releases endorphins and you think this would make becoming angry addictive, why then is it apparently already addictive when she's probably releasing stress hormones such as adrenaline as a result?

I have only considered medication as a very last resort, after putting up with horrendous behaviour getting worse over the years. I am a human being and I can only take so much, I am already medicated myself because of it!! ! Her own behaviour has frequently distressed her, herself. Therefore it's not fair to leave a child who doesn't know how to control their behaviour, the NHS has no therapy to offer, and is herself unhappy with the feelings she has.

Our GP said no because "we don't like to medicate children because of their developing brains" CAMHS said "we only give medication to suicidal teens". Never mind that her developing brain is being affected by extremely high anxiety and morbid thoughts (which could develop into suicidal ones down the line, as she says things like "I might as well be dead" sometimes as well as threatening to kill me so she could already have symptoms of depression). Never mind how that affects her developing brain as well as her enjoyment of her childhood. Never mind that I am so unwell through extreme stress that my life is probably being shortened because of it.

Are you a parent? Because if not, "no offence" you have no idea what it is like to be one, and it's not that I am unprepared to listen to what someone has to say if they don't have children but it's rarely possible to give advice on something you have never experienced yourself. It's very easy to judge people for resorting to medication, but in the US (and even over here) there are many children on medication because they need it. My problem has been getting the NHS to see that she needs it.

Perhaps when she pushes me backwards into the bath like she tried to do the other day, and she almost managed, and I crack my head open on the tiled walls and am rendered unconscious or worse, with two ASC children in the house unattended, perhaps then someone will listen to me.

Last edited by whirlingmind on 14 Apr 2013, 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

A friend of mine with a toddler just posted this article on two-year-old behavior http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/ ... trums.html

I am posting it here, because I think it is pertinent: I think an awful lot of kids on the spectrum are facing the same sense of bewilderment and betrayal that your average toddler feels, and lack the skills to define and talk themselves down from emotions. I thought this article did an excellent job in framing the problem in a two-year-old, and I think it's yet another reminder that a developmental delay means to look to how you'd parent a much younger child.

That being said, I am not in any way trying to say that an autistic meltdown=toddler-like behavior - I'm just seeing some similarities that make a lot of sense in this article.

That was useful to read, because I do think autistic children have a low emotional age, and despite being 8yo I do feel she is still like a toddler in a lot of ways. But the article says toddlers get frustrated because of being told "no" all the time and them not understanding why. I have always explained to my girls the reason for no, and why they must not do something, I've never randomly said no and left it at that. And this behaviour isn't because I've told her no. I wasn't sure what you meant by "betrayed"? Why would a young child feel betrayed? Thanks.

Is it often set off by telling her to do something?

Does this sound at all like her?

I was speaking strictly about toddlers - but remembering that autism is a social communication disorder, it stands to reason that while we might be explaining the reasons in ways that are clear to us, they might well not make sense to the child with AS (we did find this was the case with my son, who had a pragmatics deficit and was only understanding about 70% or so of many interactions, especially ones that weren't preferred ones.)

The article talks about betrayal - for a toddler, I think they mean because they've just started to need limits - prior to toddlerhood, nobody told them "no" because they physically weren't able to do anything dangerous or needing correction. They don't process that they are different, they process this as adults suddenly going from totally giving creatures to ones that arbitrarily stop them from doing what they want all the time. This feels like a betrayal to them - the rules changed completely.

For a kid on the spectrum, I don't think this process is the same, but I do think the sense of betrayal is at play. My son does feel betrayed when we impose rules he doesn't understand (see the first thing I wrote.) This is why it is helpful to have things like visual schedules and contracts: it makes the rules very, very clear. You will note, if you listen to the podcast linked above, that the point of "plan B" is largely about figuring out what things are like from the child's point of view even considering that they might have difficulty communicating.

Another thing I learned when I read this forum for a while: as a child, I loved the story of Helen Keller (and her autobiography is available for free on the internet.) Before she was taught to speak, her behavior was not really that different from a toddler or from an autistic child (she was also violent.) She had a communication deficit, but it was due to her inability to see or hear - and Anne Sullivan came in and treated it pretty much with the same techniques we're seeing are successful here.

There certainly can be all kinds of co-morbids in autism, but it is important to remember that an inability to communicate or understand is HUGELY frustrating, and it is a good place as any to start.

I agree with the above posters. I think it has to do with having trouble keeping up with the extra demands of being older, and not understanding it, in addition to just in hearing "no" more. Having less control of his/her time and the general lack of freedom that makes no sense to them is very frustrating and can make them angry.

I think this is harder on you because you are (right now) in charge of schooling. So there are things your child needs to do all day, and she does not understand the big picture of "why." This is our school problem. Our son's teacher (although absolutely no one else at school) "gets" him. So when she can, she gives him flexibility. Because of the structure that has been put in place by the mandatory testing and all the related stuff that has filtered down to the district and the school, there is a structural limit to the type of flexibility she can give. That is what triggers many of our son's problems. At home all he -needs- to do is his goodmorning/goodnight routines and homework. The structure of this has been the same for years particularly the none homework stuff. So, he is ok here for the most part, except when school is especially tough, or he really is resentful of homework impinging on his time.

It is hard to explain the big picture, which is basically for us 10 years in the future, when he has to be a functional adult or as close to it as we can manage. A 7 year old who thinks in many ways like a 4 year old (our son) is not going to get it. We are trying to explain that adults spend much of their time doing boring and unpleasant things. He does not quite understand it because in his mind we have complete agency. I think he thinks we are stupid for doing boring and unpleasant things as he has no true notion of the economy, jobs and why chores have to be done.

I don't know that this will work at eight, but at 12 we do talk about this all the time.

For instance, chores - which used to be a major point of contention - have been re-framed as "practice for when you have your own apartment." DS struggles to get enough perspective to understand "we all contribute" when his contribution is continually being re-evaluated and added to, it makes no sense to him, so I've just started saying "someday, you're going to have to be able to do this for yourself. That works for him - he knows he's going to need to live in a clean house, eat, have clean clothes, etc. (It might work on an eight year old, but when DS was eight our parenting was a hot mess, so I don't have anything useful to offer other than negative examples.)

School can be framed the same way, but I doubt so at eight. The sad truth is that skill-building (which is pretty much all you do until middle school) makes no sense at all but it must be done because you can't go forwards without it. DS is now getting to a place where he can USE skills, and he's starting to see the point to this whole education thing.

Thanks for that Ettina, there are definitely more than a few elements of the description of PDA with her, having read the article, but are they saying that is something co-morbid with autism or a separate diagnosis? She definitely has autism as she has very strong literal understanding traits, failure to understand humour, and other definite autistic traits which aren't mentioned in that description. She does do some of the distraction techniques such as saying she is too floppy to do what has been asked of her. But even when I explain the necessity of what it is that she needs to do, it doesn't work, whereas in that article there was a description of negotiating and indirect approaches being the best approach to a child with PDA, which doesn't work with her. It says PDA children don't like routine and she really has that thing with routine where if something is changed she reacts because she doesn't like different things.

She will do it frequently when she doesn't want to stop what she is doing but she has a lot of flexibility with her play time, and our educational stuff doesn't take as long as a school day so she has lots of free time to play and do what she wants.

When she had her assessment, they picked up all the typical autistic problems in communication, such as pragmatic semantic speech issues, literal interpretation and other things, but it was just that section of the assessment, it wasn't a formal speech and language assessment.

There are times (unrelated to her behaving violently) that she says she doesn't understand what I have said, and it's something really simple that I just can't fathom why she doesn't understand it. She says I'm not making sense. I did request a formal S&L assessment, and we had an appointment for it at the child development centre* that she had her assessment. Unfortunately, they cancelled it less than 2 hours before the appointment (after I'd been rushing around getting organised for it) due to staff sickness.

I rang to chase up the rearranged appointment as I was told that she was meant to be having the appointment at the CDC* because of her being home-educated, and that as the plan was to put her back in school (which they had known from months earlier at the time of her assessment ) that they had changed plan to handing over her S&L assessment to a local clinic who did assessments at the school. So when I heard from them, they said they planned to do it once she had settled in to school. I don't think this is the right way to do it, especially as she is going through the statement of SENs process and I believe they cannot give the right supports without first knowing what her language issue is. The local clinic S&L person said that having seen the example of something my daughter didn't understand that I faxed, she felt that the standard assessment she was intending to do was too basic and wouldn't pick up her difficulty. Great!

So I'm awaiting a probably pointless assessment, but that is all that's on offer. I don't have the finances to get a private one.

Having said all of this, this language issue is not coming up at the time she is being violent, so I have totally digressed here and it's not really relevant to my OP!

I know I pulled this out of a much larger explanation and at the risk of taking it totally out of context, I feel compelled to comment on this point. About 3 years ago I had to admit to myself that the tactics I was using to parent my ASD child WERE NOT WORKING. It didn't mean I was a bad parent but I had to completely change the way I approached just about everything with my ASD son. I have an older NT child for whom things like time-outs when he did something he knew he wasn't supposed to do worked perfectly fine. I could ask my NT child to get dressed and brush his teeth and, from the time he started pre-school pretty much, he needed very little support to get those tasks done. Simply asking my ASD son to do these things (even though we do the same thing EVERY morning) still doesn't work with my ASD son and he is now 7. I have learned to accept the fact that we still have a ways to go before he is going to be independent with such tasks as dressing, bathing and generally getting ready to leave the house for any outing. Not that we aren't working towards him being independent with these tasks, I just have had to adjust my expectations. So while the "problem" may not be you, changing the way you approach things with your child can be part of the solution.