child innocently contradicting teacher

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My fourth grader came home upset from school yesterday. The class had been collectively punished for the rowdiness of several classmates. There are around 30 kids in her class. She was not one of the troublemakers, she never is. But for all her aspieness, she hates what she sees as social injustice. So, she raised her hand and pointed out an example from history where a group of people were collectively punished for the wrongdoings of some...at which point her teacher started shrieking at her for her audacity.
My daughter does not handle being yelled at well.

She was really taken aback, and cannot see why it was not appropriate to reprimand the teacher. After all, she had meant it in a logical, well-meaning way. My older children have also gotten into trouble for similar incidents.

Has anyone had similar experiences? What was the most effective way to explain this concept so she won't do this again? She can't understand what she did wrong.

My husband gets mad when I contradict him. I don't even know when I am doing it and I don't understand why it's so wrong.

I had similar experiences as a kid who did the exact same thing to teachers. It's one of these things I look back on, and feel embarrassed at having done.

I did the same thing at that age.

I don't think she did anything wrong at all, and it is in fact the teacher who is at fault for failing to handle the whole event appropriately.

If it doesn't matter whether a person is guilty or innocent, and everyone who just might be guilty is punished regardless, then there is no incentive for those who were innocent to continue to behave responsibly.

You daughter should be commended for having a sense of common decency, and an understanding of right and wrong, that her teacher is clearly lacking.

I too remember similar events in my childhood, and were it not for the teacher's taking advantage of their position of power, thank's to the age difference, they would have recieved a very thorough ear-bashing for trying to demand respect that they most certainly did not deserve.

There's some truth to that---I am proud of her sense of decency. Problem is that she's likely to be at odds with her surroundings if she doesn't understand the dynamics of the authority figure relationship. We had the same situation with her older sister, who has since developed more extreme issues with authority figures. We had tried explaining that in some situations to be right isn't always to be wise.
In yesterday's situation, perhaps my daughter was right for being opposed to the collective punishment, but what her teacher perceived as "cheek" did not lead to the situation being resolved, it only made my daughter now to be perceived as a rude troublemaker. My daughter is the one who suffered for it, not the teacher.
My oldest, after being told so often that she is rude, has become..well..often..rude.

I think, and you can take it or leave it if you don't agree, that the message your dd needs to understand is that the teacher was at the end of her rope and while what your dd said was absolutely correct, it was not a good time to say it. This is obviously a difficult concept for aspies and I think many other kids to understand. My NT son does stuff like this to me and I feel very frustrated with him that he doesn't get that he should just keep his mouth shut when it is obvious that Mom is about to pop her cork.

I think one goal might be to help her understand that the teacher was pushed past the limit of what she could tolerate and your daughter's comment, while correct, caused someone who was already overwhelmed to really lose it. It was piling on. We all have our limit no matter who we are. The teacher probably needs to find a better way to handle herself when her limit is reached but perhaps you can help your dd equate this to something in her own experience that has caused her to feel overwhelmed and perhaps lash out or shut down in response. Maybe she could even have a discussion about this with the teacher if the teacher were open to it?

It took me a long time to learn that the worst place to correct someone most of the time is in front of other people. Sometimes it's better done in private, sometimes it's better done in writing. And then, some people just can't cope with the fact that they aren't perfect.

Sometimes its better just not done at all. Is it really necessary to point out everyone's flaws all the time? I don't think any of us can always appreciate criticism especially when we are already feeling stressed and vulnerable. In this case, I don't think it is a matter of of not being able to cope with not being perfect, its tht NO ONE is actually perfect and none of us is in control of our reactions all the time.

Here are my rules for when to point something out.... it needs to meet ALL THREE:

Is it true?
Is it kind?
Is it necessary?

So, we may need to define necessary and kind for what works with our own values, but in general, this works great for us. (even the know it all NTs get in trouble around when to share their infinate wisdom )

She didn't do anything wrong in my opinion.

My son has gotten in trouble plenty of times for pointing out injustices by teachers or other authority figure.

Right or wrong, I have always taught him that he should speak out when he sees an injustice, I don't care who perpetrator is, except in dangerous situations, where I have taught him to run and find an adult.

Your daughter did nothing wrong. You should stand behind her on it and tell her she did a good job.

There have been times where my son's perspective on the situation was 'off'. In those times I explain the other side to him until he can fully understand it better. In most cases, he is totally right. When I get a phone call about it, I back him up. If he's right, he's right. I have even gone so far as to refuse to bring him to detention when I felt he was right.

Spot on! Thanks for that reminder. Necessary can be a little tough to define but you could look at it in terms of serving a purpose. In the OPs case, I would say it probably fails the Kind test.

Yup, I was this kid! When I was in school, a truly horrible teacher decided to hold up the artwork of our ONLY student with a cognitive delay and display it as an example of bad work, while giggling at it and implicitly encouraging students to join her. She then asked the class to stand or sit or something, and I refused - and when asked why, I responded with fury that I wasn't going to follow the direction of someone who made fun of a kid who couldn't help how their work turned out. (I'm still mad about this incident. What an awful woman!)

I was held after school. I was not allowed to be considered for a part in the school play - and every time there was a negative consequence, the teacher made sure to point out that it was because I'd called her out in front of the class. Even though my parents heard me out and were supportive of my choice (my Dad simply came and picked me up at the normal time every day - the teacher, I think, knew he knew and didn't dare explain) I still felt the consequences. I am not sorry to this day, and was glad for the opportunity to learn that standing up for what's right does not necessarily mean sunshine and lollipops come your way.

As an adult, I have parlayed this part of me into community activism, and have been able to take measurable positive steps towards the goals I set. People listen to me; I think one of the things my neighbors respect is that I'm willing to speak hard truths and not always say what people want to hear. People are pissed off at me a lot, but they respect me.

HOWEVER - somewhat later in life than most, I also learned that standing up for what's right is usually more effective if you follow the appropriate channels, and consider the dignity of all parties. I've learned to listen, and not to place people in uncomfortable positions in public. Standing up to anyone in public not only embarrasses them, it is rarely an effective strategy.

Your daughter sounds like a logical young woman: explain to her that, logical or not, embarrassed people are likely to compound their mistakes, not correct them - pointing out errors publicly is guaranteed to embarrass. Let her know the next time she should report the incident to you privately (or to the social worker, or principal, or whatever strategy you think is appropriate.)

In the meantime, I commend her sense of justice, and hope that she will consider learning to use it to make the world a better place. I think I did.

Good for you for calling that teacher out, momsparky! She totally deserved it - an adult who would knowingly make fun of a child for something completely out of their control shouldn't even be allowed to teach, IMO.

And yes, I can remember being sort of like that, too...though I didn't really call a lot of attention to it...I can remember this time when I was about 9 years old and in afterschool care and the woman running it was at the utter end of her rope trying to get all the kids to be quiet and listen to her....I was always the kind of kid who just sat at a table, read, did my homework, or drew cartoons, so when she ended up punishing all the kids in the program by having us all put our heads down on the table and cover them up for 10 minutes, I was SO mad. From my perspective, I hadn't even done anything, but at that age, I had lacked the insight to realize that there had to be at least 50+ kids in the program, so it would be pointless to try and root out the actual troublemakers, bcuz it would be too time - consuming and expend even more of her patience and energy, however much was left. So, the easiest course of action to take was to give everyone a consequence.

I understand the whole situation better now that I'm almost 20 and have developed the proper insight (and been in situations myself where I am responsible for almost a dozen rowdy kids - I had a friend helping me, but it was still pretty tough) but mom77, I think it's great that your daughter is able to speak her mind the way you said she did, and stand up for herself...many of us (like myself) never learn how to properly assert ourselves and pay for it by being constantly taken advantage of in relationships and having our wants and needs totally ignored. I'm not a parent myself, but I'd say just tell her gently that there are certain times and places to speak up and times and places to hold one's peace (goodness knows my parents had that talk with me several times) and everything should be okay.

I agree with Bambaloo and Kaulimom's posts. This isn't about the injustice or if the teacher was wrong, it is about the social rule on when and if to correct authority. Or, for that matter, when and if to correct anyone.

This is a common situation for our kids to struggle with, because it is about social rules and not about logic.

Unless a teacher makes a clear error in something black and white like a math problem, it is inappropriate to challenge her in front of the class. If someone disagrees, they should approach her later and ask questions.

In a classroom, the teacher has the authority to set the consequences for student misbehavior, fair or not. When multiple students are involved, it is common to issue a consequence to the entire class. It is usually something like cancelling a free period to catch up on the work, which has some logic to it, since with or without disruption, the material has to get covered. It isn't usually going to be something like putting a demerit in every child's permanent file, as that would be outright inappropriate.

I've taught these situations to my son as social rule situations, where right and wrong is secondary to the social rule. He disagrees with it, as he does with many social rules, but he has learned to follow it, and has discovered that remembering these things makes his school life much more pleasant. When he gets home, then he'll rant about how ridiculous the social rule is Which is fine, I've never said he has to agree with it, I just said life will go much better if he tries to follow it.

I agree with the PP's that pointed out that this is a social rule, and some excellent tips on how to teach it. However I also wanted to say that it would not be OK to me for a teacher to "shriek" or "yell" at my child, especially at my Aspie child for unwittingly breaking a social rule. This is completely inappropriate no matter how much stress the teacher was under. Teachers are supposed to model good behaviour for their students, and to use mistakes as teaching opportunities. I would want to go in and talk to this teacher and make it clear that yelling at my child (or any child!) is unacceptable.