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CWA
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24 Sep 2012, 7:34 am

So on weekends there is no issue, I let dd5 sleep in and she takes her time getting up. But on weekdays... it is really rough. She wakes up very grumpy and is usually on the edge of a meltdown for about a half hour. She will grunt out a sharp "no" to pretty much anything I ask. Sometimes she'll even hit me for no reason that I can discern. She scowls and glares and talks to herself. She ramps up her collection efforts (collects any junk nearby) and when I dress her (if and when she lets me) she squeals and cries every step of the way. It is really rough because we both work and we need to have her at her before school daycare by a certain time or else we will be late to work, which happens far too often right now... Suggestions? Advice?



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24 Sep 2012, 7:39 am

Eugh I have the same thing and it really gets me down first thing in the morning, it ruins the rest of the day :( My dd4 is ok at weekends too as she is allowed to put a dress on and she will ony wear dresses, but on weekdays when she get up and sneaks her favourite dress on I have to force her to get it off and put her uniform on, its a nightmare.

The only thing that vaguely works for me is to just get on with it and dress her myself, I help her with everything from toilet to cleanign her teeth, I will even feed her if I have to, just to get out the house on time without the arguements. If I put the tv on she will sit and stare at it while I dress her like a baby! I figure she can dress herself at weekends so I dont worry about her not being able to do it, its just that shes so slow and argues if shes not distracted by the tv! This is difficult because I do have a 1 year old daughter too who cant do much for herself, at least she can feed herself now though lol!



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24 Sep 2012, 8:27 am

I would suggest a visual schedule and I would also consider the possibility that her blood sugar may be very low when she wakes up. While that is not the only reason people may be grumpy when they wake up, it is a very easy one to remedy if that is the problem. Would she accept a cup of fruit juice first thing? If low blood sugar is contributing to her grumpiness, this would help her body get started.

With the schedule, find a routine and stick to it, even on the weekends. It may take a while to establish the routine (or break out of the ineffective one you might currently be in) but try to persevere. Our morning routine includes 1/2 hour of TV time to start to allow both boys a chance to wake up. I know this doesn't work for some folks. Perhaps some other activity she finds pleasant or soothing could be what you start with so she can get off on the right foot. Our routine is set up so that if DS does everything, eat, get dressed, brush teeth, then he has time to play Legos before we go out the door.

Backing up about 2 years, when we were really struggling to get dressed, we had a visual schedule just for that. A picture of each article of clothing was velcored to the front of a large envelope. Each time he put on that piece of clothing he got to take the picture off and put it inside the envelope. This is especially effective if your child is like mine and enjoys the sensory experience of ripping velcro apart. We did this EVERY day for months. DS (6 yo now) still won't get dressed completely independently most of the time but it is usually not a struggle, I just have to supply repeated prompts, more or less depending upon his level of perseveration that morning.

There are lots of resources for visual schedules, I know momsparky has posted some good links, maybe try the Parenting Index stickie at the top of the board.



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24 Sep 2012, 10:08 am

The one thing that jumped out at me is that on weekends your DD gets to sleep in. Maybe try moving bedtime half an hour earlier?



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24 Sep 2012, 10:50 am

I think she is sleepy, too.

We do better with mornings on weekends also. DS gets another 40 minutes of sleep. We are (usually) not rushed and so he can dawdle, which he intrinsically prefers. He has down time and can play before moving on with his day. He can eat breakfast later in the day, which suits him also.

Weekdays mean you have to get your child to conform to a schedule that does not fit her, individually.

We have tried to rewire his sleeping by making him go to bed earlier, and for us it has not worked. But I would try it, as Zette suggested, if you haven't, because all kids are different.

I agree with making her a visual schedule, as well as the early morning juice. We do that also, and it does help with a temporary burst in energy. Every year it gets a little easier. In Kinder is was awful. In 1st grade it was less so. This year is not too bad, but still not where we would like it. We are going to try instituting rewards in exchange for less dawdling, once we decide on the parameters and good rewards that won't choke out our other reward systems.



CWA
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24 Sep 2012, 11:54 am

zette wrote:
The one thing that jumped out at me is that on weekends your DD gets to sleep in. Maybe try moving bedtime half an hour earlier?


Bed time is a battlezone too.

They both go to bed at 8pm laready, since I work that means we don't all get home till about 6pm really. That only gives 2 hours for eating, bathing, and "quality" time. Going to bed any earlier is really not feasible. I have skipped the bath and done it a few time if she is obviously crnky and over tired.

At bed time dd5 is usually pretty ok, willing to at least get ready for bed and get into bed. However dd2.5 pitches a fit (read screams and cries stubbornly) each and every night which usually keeps both of them up until about 8:30pm or later somenights.

I know she really needs more sleep, it would help.

Yeah she is 5 but I still have to do everything in the morning. I have to dress her or else she either wont or it will take hours. I usually can't get her to agree to use the potty. I sometimes will turn on the tv to help facilitate things, but sometimes when it's time to turn it off... we have problems...



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24 Sep 2012, 4:18 pm

For us the key is expectations and this is really what visual schedules are all about, managing expectations. With the TV in the morning, my boys get to watch until 7:30, NO EXCEPTIONS. They know that when whatever show they are watching from 7:00-7:30 is over, I am going to turn the TV off. It took some time for this rule to get internalized and there were some difficult days but now, they know what to expect and I deliver it every day. I give a reminder about 5 minutes before the show is over that it is almost over and it is time for breakfast as soon as that show is over. Rarely does DS 6 argue, when he does, it is a sign to me that there is something else going on that is stressing him out.

I hear ya on how short the evening together time is. I work outside of the home too and it seems like I just get home and get dinner on the table and then its bath time and then time for bed.

Is there anything you can do for the 2.5 yo to get her ready for bed with less fuss? I recall reading Kim West's "The Sleep Lady's Good Night Sleep Tight Guide" that helped us get older DS to start going to sleep better when he was about that age. I still credit that woman with saving my sanity!

Getting good bedtime and morning routines working is invaluable. Once you decide what the routine needs to be, really stick to it. Use extra visual supports for tasks like getting dressed and instant rewards where possible. Another example of a visual support that we used was the Stop Light. Last school year, DS 6 was constantly getting hyper focused on playing Legos or reading or something other than doing what he needed to be doing - getting dressed. I printed out a picture of a traffic light with the red light lit up. I would put the picture in front of his face and say "red light". We had talked about this beforehand and he understood that "red light" means stop what you are doing and pay attention to Mommy. When he would give me his attention, I was ready with a page of stickers. He could choose one and put on the picture with the stop light. Instant gratification and it broke his concentration on whatever was distracting him from getting dressed. After a couple weeks of doing this, he stopped needing that level of intervention in order for me to get his attention.

It can take 6 weeks or so before you start to see the pay-off from a firm schedule. After that amount of time if nothing is working, re-evaluate. One thing I try to do and I have noticed that therapists and such do too, build some limited choices into the schedule where possible. For us this means that DS gets to choose what box of cereal he wants to have for breakfast. He also gets to choose whether he gets his clothes out himself or if he wants me to pick them out. I think giving them a chance to have some say-so when it is feasible helps them feel more in control of themselves.



CWA
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24 Sep 2012, 8:17 pm

bomba- as for the 2.5 year old... you know that satire bed time book "Go the F to sleep"? I think it was written about her. From the moment she was able to utter a word, she has tried to manipulate bedtime. I give very limited choices as it is, any further limits and there would be zero choices. I found it helps. Right now when we get dressed I usually pre prick out the outfit and maybe let her choose between two shirts. If I let her pick more than that it becomes an ordeal. She'll either get stuck and can't pick or she will look obsessively for the one shirt that is in the wash. Then for each Item, if we have time, I ask if she would like to put it on. Usually she will do the underwear and that's about it and even that takes about 2-3 minutes of lining them up, aiming the foot etc... Sometimes she trys the other items put usually gives up or starts squealing halfwaythrough that she is stuck.



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24 Sep 2012, 8:27 pm

This may sound like completely bizarre advice, but the kids' neuro gave it to me and I tried it and it worked.

Get her up 30 minutes early.

Strange sounding, I know. Especially when it seems like she is having a hard time waking up. More sleep would sound like a more logical route to take.

Really, going from sleep to wakefulness is a transition. Just like any other transition, many of our kids have problems. When I started getting my kids up earlier than they "needed" to get up, it allowed them to "ease" in to the morning. My kids have no demands placed on them for the first 30 minutes they are awake. I allow them to eat breakfast (which is not seen as a demand) while watching a favorite tv show. (I know, watching TV while eating is "bad," but--hey--it gets us through the morning without fights and aggravation. My son is recently interested in taking a long hot shower when he first gets up (almost 11), but again, this is his choice, not my demand. They don't even need to speak (and my daughter usually doesn't). By the end of the show, breakfast is done and they are awake. Then we start the hygiene, grooming, and dressing routines.

I actually get myself up 30 minutes early now. Ramble around aimlessly with coffee in hand. It helps, for as odd as it seems.


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25 Sep 2012, 3:32 am

My son has had this issue ever since he started school. We've FINALLY started to get it under control. He's ready to go on time (with time to spare, even) almost every morning and only gets upset over clothes (he's REALLY fussy about which clothes he will wear, and has absolute meltdowns over certain items of clothing).

Anyway, we bought him an alarm clock that he is responsible for setting. At first, it took a while to make a new routine of getting him to set the alarm clock. I also wrote down his morning schedule and hung it on his bedroom wall, so he could clearly see what he needed to do.

Example:
7 am - wake up
7:10 am - make breakfast, eat breakfast
7:20 am - rinse your dirty dishes and put them in the dishwasher
7:25 am - Get Dressed
7:45 am - Make your lunch, then pack your school bag (homework, lunch bag, drink bottle)
8:20 am - put your shoes on, get your coat/boots/umbrella ready
8:30 am - walk to school

When he has an established routine, he's MUCH better. We still have issues with what to wear, and I'm still battling to get him to pick his clothes out the night before (which I'm not sure will ever happen!) -- but now he is at least ready to go on time, provided we don't have a "there's nothing to wear" meltdown. It did take several weeks, but he's got it down now. :)



CWA
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25 Sep 2012, 7:24 am

InThisTogether wrote:
This may sound like completely bizarre advice, but the kids' neuro gave it to me and I tried it and it worked.

Get her up 30 minutes early.

Strange sounding, I know. Especially when it seems like she is having a hard time waking up. More sleep would sound like a more logical route to take.

Really, going from sleep to wakefulness is a transition. Just like any other transition, many of our kids have problems. When I started getting my kids up earlier than they "needed" to get up, it allowed them to "ease" in to the morning. My kids have no demands placed on them for the first 30 minutes they are awake. I allow them to eat breakfast (which is not seen as a demand) while watching a favorite tv show. (I know, watching TV while eating is "bad," but--hey--it gets us through the morning without fights and aggravation. My son is recently interested in taking a long hot shower when he first gets up (almost 11), but again, this is his choice, not my demand. They don't even need to speak (and my daughter usually doesn't). By the end of the show, breakfast is done and they are awake. Then we start the hygiene, grooming, and dressing routines.

I actually get myself up 30 minutes early now. Ramble around aimlessly with coffee in hand. It helps, for as odd as it seems.


You know I had considerred this. And still am. Because after about 15-20 minutes of refusing to get out of bed and insisting she needs to streth because her limbs are still asleep (I wonder if this means something to anyone- in the morning she claims that all of her extremities still feel sleep and all of her motor skills are absolute garbage in the morning, I hate to put it like that but I've seen her unable to pick up a cup in the morning and claim her hands are still sleepy), and then another 15-20 minutes of basically freaking out, being obstinate, and refusing to do ANYTHING other than scowl, glare, and go "hrmph" she usually seems ok. Thing is I don't want to get dd2.5 up early, she needs the sleep and is fine in the morning. They share a room and the second I go in there in the morning little miss bushy tail is rearing to go. If she was a little older I could do that and then let them color or watch tv while I get my shower etc, but I still dont trust the 2.5 yo to not color on the wall or something.



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25 Sep 2012, 10:51 am

CWA wrote:
Because after about 15-20 minutes of refusing to get out of bed and insisting she needs to streth because her limbs are still asleep (I wonder if this means something to anyone- in the morning she claims that all of her extremities still feel sleep and all of her motor skills are absolute garbage in the morning, I hate to put it like that but I've seen her unable to pick up a cup in the morning and claim her hands are still sleepy)
I have to reiterate the possibility that her blood sugars are just really low in the morning. For most of us this is probably true to one degree or another. By the time we wake up in the morning we've spent several hours without any food. This effects different people in different ways. Symptoms of low blood sugar include extreme irritability and diminished motor skills. For many folks this can be easily remedied by drinking a glass of fruit juice to give a quick boost to the blood sugar. For a 5 yo this probably doesn't need to be more than about 4 ounces.



CWA
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25 Sep 2012, 11:16 am

Bombaloo wrote:
CWA wrote:
Because after about 15-20 minutes of refusing to get out of bed and insisting she needs to streth because her limbs are still asleep (I wonder if this means something to anyone- in the morning she claims that all of her extremities still feel sleep and all of her motor skills are absolute garbage in the morning, I hate to put it like that but I've seen her unable to pick up a cup in the morning and claim her hands are still sleepy)
I have to reiterate the possibility that her blood sugars are just really low in the morning. For most of us this is probably true to one degree or another. By the time we wake up in the morning we've spent several hours without any food. This effects different people in different ways. Symptoms of low blood sugar include extreme irritability and diminished motor skills. For many folks this can be easily remedied by drinking a glass of fruit juice to give a quick boost to the blood sugar. For a 5 yo this probably doesn't need to be more than about 4 ounces.


Do you think apple slices or a banana would work? I am very anti fruit juice/soda/sugary drink. We don't allow it in the house.



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25 Sep 2012, 11:23 am

CWA wrote:
Bombaloo wrote:
CWA wrote:
Because after about 15-20 minutes of refusing to get out of bed and insisting she needs to streth because her limbs are still asleep (I wonder if this means something to anyone- in the morning she claims that all of her extremities still feel sleep and all of her motor skills are absolute garbage in the morning, I hate to put it like that but I've seen her unable to pick up a cup in the morning and claim her hands are still sleepy)
I have to reiterate the possibility that her blood sugars are just really low in the morning. For most of us this is probably true to one degree or another. By the time we wake up in the morning we've spent several hours without any food. This effects different people in different ways. Symptoms of low blood sugar include extreme irritability and diminished motor skills. For many folks this can be easily remedied by drinking a glass of fruit juice to give a quick boost to the blood sugar. For a 5 yo this probably doesn't need to be more than about 4 ounces.


Do you think apple slices or a banana would work? I am very anti fruit juice/soda/sugary drink. We don't allow it in the house.

Fruit would work too, I guess my go-to is juice because it is so easy to get down and fast acting but I understand the desire to avoid having those items in the house. Yogurt might also be a good source.



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26 Sep 2012, 7:19 am

UPDATE:

I instituted two changes this morning, I don't want o get too excited with a sample size of n=1, but it went really well!

1) I gave dd5 some apple slices the second she woke up (and I also indicated that she was going to get to watch a little TV).

2) I got them both up first, before doing anything else. Then I let them eat/watch tv while I sorted out clothes etc. and got myself ready. Then after about 30 minutes of that I got them brushed, dressed etc and left the tv on while I did it (making it clear that the TV would go off at the end of the show they were watching or at 7:30 whichever came first.

No crying, complaining, whining or fits. Yay!



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26 Sep 2012, 9:37 am

Yay! Hopefully it was just a transition issue and giving her a chance to "ease into it" like that will continue to work!


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