Is it wrong to give them the Cold Hard Facts?

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My son is 11, but has seemed like a difficult, argumentative teenager since the age of 5. He can be so sweet and really cares about people when they are in pain or hurt, but otherwise doesn't often consider their feelings and everything annoys him. I thought we had gotten to a pretty good place last year, but he has been driving me up the wall for the last few month. He is 11, so I am hoping it is the age and I will see an upswing again one day.

He is very friendly and outgoing. He wants lots of friends. He wishes he had gotten elected to Student Council again. He wishes he had been picked for the school bell ringers group. He wishes he had been chosen for Safety Patrol. he wants to be majorly involved, but he also gets annoyed at everything. In general, he wants things his way, and thinks he knows everything. We have explained to him repeatedly how these behaviors aren't gong to make people want to hang with him. I know he knows this. Oh, he denies he does these things all day long, but I can also see it in his eyes that he knows what I am saying it right and just refuses to admit I know anything. He hates to admit he is wrong. Think Sheldon on Big Bang when he has to admit he is wrong about something and that is my son.

We were walking to school this morning. He had to catch up to us. When he got next to me, his sister said "XXXX is next to you." in a completely neutral tone. She was being informational by telling me he had caught up to us. It annoyed him, so for the next 3-4 houses he mimics exactly what she said several times. (He mimics people often when he is annoyed with them.) I had had enough and finally told him straight up that doing that crap is why he doesn't get invited to birthday parties anymore and why one of his friends keeps wanting to invite his twin over and making excuses for not having him over. I told him he is down to 2 friends and he isn't going to have them much longer if he doesn't learn to shut his mouth. This isn't the first time lately I have lost my temper and told him in plain English exactly what is going to happen if he doesn't control his mouth. He then ran his mouth on and on about how his own mother is mean to him. I tried to tell him his Dad and I have been giving him social lessons all these years to help him and he needed to adopt these lessons or lose his friends. As a Mom, I feel like a horrible person because I don't want him to think I personally am rejecting him, but I also feel like he isn't a baby anymore and someone needs to tell him these things.

I seem to waffle these days between just shutting my mouth and letting him sink, hoping he will learn this stuff on his own better than me telling him. However, I remember he has never learned social stuff on his own, so I then start to point out the glaringly obvious to him, but he doesn't want to listen to me or adopt anything I am teaching him, so what is the point? He resents all of it. The teachers, the resource room aides, the ST, his Dad and Me. It doesn't see to matter who presents information to him, he resents the message and says "Oh good, another lecture!"

Ugh! That kid would argue with God and tell him how he doesn't know what he is talking about.

this is soooooo my son!! !!

As for telling him the cold hard facts, I think its ok, but in a certain context. Its so hard to keep our cool when they push our buttons all the time, but I think anything said in an angry condecending tone isnt going to teach them. Maybe block out time at the end of each day to go over some things that you see he can work on to improve his friendships and give ideas, etc...

good luck!

I have always agreed with what you are saying. We have spent years teaching him and talking about consequences of our actions, etc. It seems that while intellectually he knows this stuff, he doesn't care enough to actually adopt any of it, but then he will complain to me when his twin gets invited to so much stuff or gets elected to Student Council again. It seems like we have tried to soften the blows and beat around the bush forever and he just isn't getting that his mouth needs to shut off. Honestly, if he would quit running his mouth, 90% of his social problems would disappear. I get why kids don't want to hear it. I am his own Mom and I am sick of hearing it.

Arguementative, yes I can identify with that!! MY DD5 argues all the time, she will start a new arguement if she thinks shes not winning, but the majority of the time she has a point lol. I know that feeling where you try not to be so blunt and you skirt around it like you would with any other kid, but when they are arguing back at everything you say you just have to be blunt. Luckily he probably didnt think much of it and might even have appreciated it! My daughter needs me to be blunt for her to get the message, hinting will never work with her, or my husband or half his family!! I have never been the sort of person who "tells it like it is" Im too diplomatic if anything so I have really had to adapt and it feels wrong to me. Recently my husband had to tell his Mum off for teaching our DD5 make cups of tea, because its not age appropriate and its dangerous as she is so clumsy. We hinted and hinted and asked nicely and she didnt listen so hubby was incredibly blunt and it worked, she wasnt upset though, but had he talked to me like that I would have been in tears!!

I point out the obvious to my daughter, but then she does the same back in her own way which can be very irratating! She will say things like "you've got a jumper on" over and over again.... I know I put it on lol! But I think she really responds to it.

I can see myself being there is a few years. It is my son's way or the highway, you know. This is not a good friend-making strategy.

I also wrestle with how much truth telling is appropriate from his mom, but yet I do not think blowing smoke up his derriere is good, either. So far, I have opted for kind of a neutral, "If you want x, then you need to do y" kind of thing and hope it clicks.

Maybe if you time it for when he has questions complaints about not being picked for things as opposed to coming out with it too bluntly. If he complains about not being voted for Student Council, you could ask him why he thinks that is, and see what he says. If he pushes it on other people being mean (which a lot of times social cliques can be mean) you could try to redirect to asking him how he could go about making quality friends, and asking him what attributes quality friends look for in a friend etc. Try to slow-walk him to an epiphany as Sheldon would say. Then you can spell it out nicely if he complains about said slow walk.

I hear you. I underastand , my son is just like this. Intellectually he knows it ALL, but he cannot control himself. My son is only 7, and I HOPE and PRAY he will get it some day...but I do find that when I am more like a drill sargent then a mother he responds BETTER. I hate it, I HATE it, and it makes me wonder what it will do to his slef esteem one day, but he actually responds better to harsh to the point parenting.

Have the kids in his class ever told him? I wonder how to get thru to them??? My son also doesnt get it at all...his issue is that he will walk over to just about ANYONE and strike upi a conversation, and the kids are turned off cause they dont know him, etc... and he doesnt catch on to back off, he just keeps going and going after them. I try to tell huiim nicely but he just doesnt get it.

Does the school offer any advice?

Waht about rules and consequences? I tell my son to repeat people in his head not out loud if he must repeat. And I also get it, he drives me CRAZY a lot of the time and I am his mother who will love him unconditionally forever, I can only imagine what he does to others!

good luck!

From my opinion it might be a problem, that maybe you just show him how to act? Acting is hard work, actors do net get payed for fun. So if you just want him to act for grandmothers visit and so on, some hours, i think this should be no problem. But you wish him to act 24 hours a day, and nobody can do that. So as long as he has got energy left, he maybe will be acting well and make some efforts, but if surprised/tired/stressed, he cant act anymore and is showing his true self. Thats pretty normal for everyone of us.

From my opinion, maybe you should try more, that he is really understanding what you mean. Not just tell him facts, but tell him why these are facts, so he can understand them. If a fact is a fact, there has to be a reason behind it. If not, its not a fact.

I do not know if he is maybe a bit too young for books this kind, but i was really helped by a book of Rosenberg, a german mediator. (A person who works helping when two fractions are having a disagreement, so he tries to solve the disagreement for both fractions in a good way, trying to make them understand each other.) In his book he mentioned different cases, which was part of his work, from marriage disagreement to Israeli/Palestinian disagreements and he really explained why a certain kind of reaction lead to another reaction, what people are thinking and feeling, when reacting this or that way and so on and it became logic to me. Before so much made absolutely no sense or seemed just stupid, as if i would tell you: "If you go shopping then you have to make 5 push ups, a Bavarian folk dance and two somersaults in front of your shopping cart, if not, aunt Elsbeth will be offended. O_o

I gotta say it changed my oppinion upon other people from "weird, crazy, unpredictable primates, terrorizing other people just for fun all day and making stupid things" to "species with complicated social rules, that makes senses within their habitats". I know this sounds rude, but if a neighbor of you would terrorize you with a jackhammer all day long, without use, u get angry on him and thinks this guy is the greatest idiot in the world. If your neighbor is instead actually working something useful in his home, it doesn't make the noise better, but you understand why he is doing it and are normally not getting as angry.

So from my opinion maybe it should be less about teaching him how to act better all day long (I do not think he will ever manage that.) but to help him understand why he is feeling to react in the way he actually does, what situations led to this point, where could be a misunderstanding? If he is angry, there must be a cause why he is angry, even if its wrong. When your in private maybe instead of telling him, that he shouldn't be angry, try calmly to make him explain why he feels angry, and what feelings goes through his head, so he starts thinking about the situations himself, reflecting himself. Being angry is not funny for yourself, so you dont do that because of fun. If there is a situation which made him angry, and it is a misunderstanding, maybe try to help him understand. But a big part of it is to accept the different feelings of other persons including his own. As long as he is used, that there is only one right feeling or perception towards a situation, as long will other people act crazy to him, so it is hard to respect them. That was a great failure of my father, for him there was only one right way to feel or percept something. And if that wasn't the same, it was wrong. So when i copied that kind of perception, it lead to situations when either I or someone else would be wrong. Only when you accept that other people are behaving in their own perception as logical as you are doing yourself, that complete different perceptions and actions regarding to that, can be both right and useful to the person, than their actions are making sense. The more you understand the more you can respect that.

Its hard to respect people, which are talking nonsense all day just to pollute the air around them with noise junk and to terrorize you. But thats not why people are doing it. Shortened: People do it, because in earlier times it was very important to be a member of a clan. If a member is ill, he could relie on the help of the others. So if someone payed me attention i could be ensured, that this person recognizes me and will help me if i am in problems. So its good for me to be payed positive attention. And the brainstem is reacting to this positive situation with the distribution of endorphins, which leads to a happy person. The person itself is not aware of this, she just senses that the situation (talking with other people) feels good for her. And everyone likes to do things, that makes us feel good so its logical for the person that she wants to stay in the situation. That doesn´t make me happier, when i am trapped in such situations, but i do not get angry anymore because of people terrorizing me just for fun. ^^

Now that his classmates will be slowly starting with puberty, i think, it would be very important for him to really understand, because if he thinks his classmates are acting weird now, much fun in 2 years. (This phase of my life was absolutely horrible and frustrating.)

So Mr. perfect... first i want to ask how would you be able to invent light at the first day of genesis, if the missing of light implicates that there could have been no sun and no earth rotation? I mean if there is no sun and no earth rotation then there is no day, because even if we get away from solar scientific and just stay at simple believings, then a day is a full phasis of dark/light change. Which cannot happen without light. So if there is no light and according to that, there is no day, there is also no first day to invent something. So to help you to make your book right we will change that to "And first god created the light." Which leads us to the next creation of yours which, regarding to the correction, is now happening on the first day....

But i do not think that god would be offended, because if every being is part of gods plan, so are annoying aspies. XD

No I don't think it's wrong. Mom did the same to me growing up and it did hurt but at least I learned. I know now why kids wouldn't like me or want to play with me because of the teasing I did and kids pointing out how bossy I am. Sometimes aspie kids need to know the truth even if it hurts so they know what they are doing wrong. If they are concerned about why they are losing friends or why they never have time for them or why they exclude them, etc. or they are wondering why it happens or don't understand why, then you tell them. eg. "This is why kids think you are mean." "This is why kids don't want to play with you." Then you tell them the reason.

Since he doesn't seem to be able take what you say to heart and apply it, I wonder if it would sink in better if it came from his twin? You'd probably have to make sure the twin isn't too harsh on him or the message will get rejected. It occurs to me that he might make the 1 to 1 connection better if his twin is doing X (or NOT doing X) and getting Y because of doing X, then he might see more clearly the cause and effect relationship. Just a thought!

Its the same with my DD5, I have told her before about how she should just keep quiet sometimes as she just keeps digging deeper and making things worse and if she would just stop talking she would be fine! Its definately her mouth that gets her in trouble

This really can't be helped, to me.... I'm an adult and still have this problem, it's this INSATIABLE curiosity with things, facts, ideas... it's like trying to make someone who loves chocolate to NEVER eat it again...

Wish you the best, perhaps there could be outlets for this argumentativeness in your son so that it is diminished in other interactions? I see debate team in highschool... I was doing model UN and that was a lot of fun. Even went to the Hague, in Netherlands!

Sooner or later they have to either sink or swim. Sooner or later, we have to let them fall on their own swords if they choose to.

Unfortunately, with some autistic kids, that happens a lot sooner than we'd like, and sooner than they are even ready for it themselves, if only because they simply will not accept anything BUT their own experience instead of taking anyone's advice, even their own parent's.

Bucking heads with my kids has never done any good whatsoever. None. If any one of them are stuck on a course of action or inaction, and won't budge no matter what I say, I just shut my own mouth. Why? Because that is exactly what I'm frequently telling them to do, just as you are.

Here'e the weird conundrum you're facing. While we're yakking at them to shut their mouths and listen, what are they hearing? Us yakking at them, not shutting our own mouths. If we just keep doing that over and over, we're just setting the wrong example for them aren't we? We may not see it that way, but that may be what they are seeing. He may be thinking to himself, "Geez, she want's me to shut up, but listen to HER!"

I can't tell you for sure what's going through his head, and he probably can't (or won't) either, so sometimes we just have to guess. What I do sometimes is to imagine what they're seeing like a silent movie. Even if we can't hear what's being said in a silent movie, we can tell that the characters are talking, and can even tell when they're yelling. Picture what he's seeing first, then turn the sound back on, turn OFF the picture, and listen to what he's hearing from you, all from HIS perspective. Sometimes just watching the silent version in my head for a while, then listening to the sound without the picture, switching back and forth mentally between both, I can perceive conflicting messages I wouldn't otherwise sense.

Compare what you see with what you hear, in your head, from HIS perspective. Does it make sense? Does the sound track fit what he sees? I mean, does what is HAPPENING visually, match the message being sent? Or are you doing exactly what you're telling him not to do? Never mind the logic of what you say. That doesn't count. What counts is, are you yakking away at him about shutting up, but not really shutting up yourself?

Do you argue with him? Stop doing it. Likely you want him to quit arguing with you, but if you're arguing with him, he's never going to knock it off. He's just doing what you are doing.

Do you lecture him, but he doesn't really listen or respond? Stop. If he's not listening or responding, you may as well be talking into the air. It's clearly not doing any good, so don't bother with it.

Different things work with different kids obviously, but with my own kids, when they get this way, I just tell them they're going to have to pay the natural consequences of what they do, then ask them if they want to know what the consequences might be. If they ask, I tell them, and then leave it at that. I won't tell them again. If then, they choose to do whatever it is again anyway, and the consequences come, I still say nothing. Nothing until they come to me saying it's a problem. That is when I will say, "What did I say would happen?" and again, leave it at that.

Basically whenever they get like that I just go into response mode. I'll ask them if they want my advice, and only give it to them if they say yes. Give it to them once, then leave them be and wait to see what they do.

I think autistic kids have a very hard time accepting anything but their own experiences as their teachers. All of my kids have trust issues. They don't trust anything we say, until what we say will happen, actually does happen. The more their experience matches what we told them, the more they tend to come back to us with trust. It just takes some of their own experiences as opposed to just accepting what we say, to start believing that we may actually know what we're talking about. It's like they have to test everything we say before they'll believe it.

Sometimes I wonder if it's hardwired in their brains to process what we predict will happen like an experiment. "Mom says if I do that, this is what will happen. Now I have to go and test whether it's true."

And I wish I could say it's that simple too, but it's not. It isn't that simple, because there is sometimes this incessant need to be RIGHT about things, that seems also to be hardwired. So if we're aggravating them by repeatedly telling them the same things over and over, there is the implication that because we're repeatedly telling them the same things, we're telling them they are doing things the wrong way over and over. That can instill that famous digging in of their heels, making a stand to prove themselves right, and you wrong, because to be wrong means there is something wrong with them. And they don't want to be wrong! The more we go after them to correct behaviors, the more we are telling them they are wrong, and the deeper they'll dig their trenches just to prove US wrong. And, they'll do that even if it means making their own lives miserable in the process!

I don't know any other way to deal with it except to let them know what I think once (and only more than that if they ask), and then leave them alone to make their own mistakes. Is it hard? Of course it is! It's hard to see such young kids making serious mistakes they could avoid so easily if they would just listen and do what we tell them. But, THEY WON'T.

So tell 'em once. Let 'em screw up. If they ask what went wrong, ask them what you told them would happen. If they say they can't remember, tell them again. You'd be surprised how often you'll start getting sheepish smiles and grins followed by "Ooooohhh yeeeaaaah."

At least I hope so. This works fairly well most of the time with my three. But it took a long time to see results, and a lot of courage to start doing it, and to wait long enough to see it work.

See, my son sinks all the time and NEVER learns from his mistakes. That is my issue with the "sink or swim" theorists. I SOOOO wish he would learn from his mistakes, from his errors, etc...

But, whar do you do with a kid who never learns from his errors, who makes the SAME mistakes over and over, even right after he did it, I mean IMMEDIALTELY afte he made an error and was OOOPS, but goes and does the same again???

I think along the lines of sink or swim are the hopes that our kids will understand the consequences for their actions, and I dont see the connection being made one bit with my son. What do you do in that case?

First of all (no offense meant or taken), it's not a theory. It's a cold hard fact. What do you do? What CAN you do?

The question is, how long have you waited for him to learn from his own mistakes? How long without bugging him about it? Seriously. It can take a very long time for an autistic to get it. To learn, even from their own mistakes. He may just not be operating on your time table. But I don't know your son, so I couldn't say for certain. I know with my own, I had to wait for years for them to learn certain things most kids there age learned much earlier.

In your sons case, it may only be that he still needs more time. But the important part of what I tried to say there is that sometimes it takes us butting out.

Don't misunderstand me. It takes IMMENSE patience.

What do I do in that case? Wait longer.

I was full blown adult by society's standards before I eventually learned many things most of my peers had figured out long before leaving public school. And I mean, even into my thirties!

Panic and pressuring won't do anything but frustrate you and your son, and make it worse.

Are you just telling him what he's doing wrong and what impact it will have, or are you giving him specific suggestions on how to do better?

Maybe he resents it because he doesn't know any other way to act.

Also, keep in mind that knowing something and being able to actually do it are two different things. A lot of autism spectrum people have executive dysfunction, which makes it harder to control your own behavior. I know I tend to talk nonstop, and I find it frustrating to be told to stop talking because it's extremely difficult for me to inhibit talking when I want to talk.

If your going to talk to him, try these ideas:

1.) Identify what he did wrong clearly, use specific examples.

2.) Explain the right thing to do in those situations

3.) Explain WHY it is the right thing to do and WHY what he did was wrong. Be specific. AS people need to understand the why, they are very logically minded.

But I do agree, at some point, you have to step back and let them burn. There's just nothing you can do until they are ready.