Academics, special education

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Hi all. My son is almost 12. He has a few identified learning disabilities and a processing disorder, as well as the new autism diagnosis and who knows what else. With the new autism diagnosis I've been rethinking a lot of what I've been doing with him when his previous diagnoses were bi-polar and ADHD (which he still might have, or might just be aspects of autism, who knows.)

From the standpoint of academics, math specifically... Is there a point that I just give up? You'd think I'd have a better sense of this given that I have completed all the coursework and tests for a multiple subjects teaching credential and 30 graduate level units toward a Master's in education - but I don't. That was all about teaching and remediation with the idea that the kids will one day learn what you're trying to teach them. But what if they won't?

So, my son has worked thru fraction units a full 5 times. Once in the public school, once at a private tutoring institution, once with me in combination with a tutor, and two more times with me, starting in the fourth grade. We completed the fifth fraction unit a few weeks ago. When we move on, such as doing decimals or ratios or percents, it becomes apparent he does not remember much of anything, and we start over. He doesn't remember if we do it daily, if we do it every other day, if we do it once per week, if we use different methods, if different people work with him, when he's feeling well, when he's feeling unwell, morning, afternoon, night, at his desk, at the coffee shop, at the library, fidgeting or sitting still or laying down or marching around. During each individual session he will sometimes be able to do a problem after two problems where I work him thru it, but sometimes he can't do any problems on his own, and sometimes when he can, he can't do a second. Almost every time also we have to go back and remind him how to do long division or multiplication.

We are currently working thru fractions for a 6th time, with me and his special education teacher. It's no better. It's really exactly the same as fourth grade (he's about to enter 7th.) Today we were on a lesson about multiplying a whole number by a fraction, say 12 times 3/4. It took 45 minutes to do 4 of those. That was a bit of a better time than average. He wasn't able to do any of them on his own but he was able to do parts of them on his own... When we encounter a certain aspect of fractions, he is sure he's never encountered it before. Like this time in our new book he asked "why didn't we have to find the common denominator last time we did fractions?" I even have a chart I let him use sometimes that lists factors and multiples so that he can get help finding the right number and then at least that part is easy and he just has to remember what to do with them, but he doesn't remember what to do with them on his own.

So I'm going to talk to his special education teacher about this too, but it's occurring to me, there are some kids who are not ever expected to learn math. There are some kids who might learn a bit of simple math. My son is hyper verbal and reads at a college level but if his verbal problems matched his math problems then he'd be compromised overall much more obviously and maybe nobody would even think of torturing him trying to teach him fractions. If he is never going to get better then I am not inclined to keep working on it as it's not really fun and it's a waste of time if it's not going to stick. It's not total torture I guess - I mean he doesn't cry most of the time and I manage to stay calm and helpful and sometimes he's pleased with himself. But I don't like sitting down several times per week to get him to do something he can't do. I wouldn't take him to the operating room and expect him to perform surgery - how do I know if this is any different?

I'm going to back off for a bit and we'll move into things like measuring, geometry, counting back change (all stuff we've done before but he's nowhere near competent in any of it but it is much easier for him than "actual" math.) Then I'll do a decimal unit again (we've done two, they go slightly better than fractions.) But we can't do algebra if he can't master fractions. He is interested in algebra and we've actually skipped ahead and started it a couple of times but his lack of skill with fractions always sends us back. He is also interested in chemistry but he'll not be able to do any sort of reactions or dimensional analysis if he can't understand fractions. Maybe I'll try again when he's older? What do you guys do?

Have you tried teaching him with clay, or some other tactile object? Forgive me for the suggestion if you have. My older son has a really hard time processing or remembering things he is not interested in and also has mild dyslexia. He does much better with absorbing the information if he can touch it. You can also use a gel board, wiki sticks, etc.

I had a conversation with another mother while we were waiting for our kids in a special needs sports program. Her son is on the spectrum. She was telling me that he had been in a mainstream classroom, but had a really hard time keeping up with the math. He (is in middle school) was having a really hard time with the math concepts especially. They ended up switching his program to a class for kids with special needs with more of a life skills focus. They focus more on teaching the kids about making change with a cash register (so that they understand when they are being short changed later in life), following recipes, etc. in math. She said she had been totally focused on making him as 'normal' as possible but then realized that he really just needed to learn to be as self sufficient as possible. I don't know what the requirements are in your area, but maybe you can step down the math requirements if possible.

OMG, NO! I was one of those kids who everyone gave up on and was told I was "just bad at math" - back in the day, it was OK to say that to a woman.

Problem is, I love science and have great aptitude for it - but it all needs math.

My son inherited my problems with math, we are finding work-arounds for him. For instance, the visual guides at Khan Academy online really help him, and we're also using a BBC website called Skillswise for drilling, as there is a multiplication table drill.

We've never used it, but the program KidSpiration has a math guide for visual learners that helps them through the steps.

I read about a neurological study on kids with dyscalculia - one of the things they learned is that once you get past addition and subtraction, math happens in the language centers of the brain. If you think about it, multiplication, fractions, ratios, and percents are all different ways of saying the same thing - which is very confusing to an aspie-like brain which wants things in binary. Using visual ways to represent these things (pie graphs, times tables, charts) will help you.

My son is gifted when it comes to ratio: he can visually scale down a recipe when cooking, or figure out how much color to add to get a particular shade (all uses of ratio in the real world) He struggles to DESCRIBE what he's doing mathematically. Make sure that's not what is happening for your son.

I think it sounds a lot like the advice on this forum leans towards "just give up." I don't think that is what most of us mean. I think we really mean "don't rush things" and "prioritize."

I think you've got the right idea with moving on to a new unit. Circle back to the concepts he hasn't mastered at a later date. I think it is likely that he might pick up more of it on the next go around. Sometimes kids need to reach a certain maturity level before they can grasp certain concepts. Also fractions are really hard for lots of kids. I wouldn't give up completely.

Thanks everybody! Today I said "lets take a break from fractions for a while, you've been working on them so much, and we'll do some other stuff instead." He said "OK."

I am going to add that you do not need fractions for all of algebra.

Make forward motion where you can.

Remember 2+3 =? is algebra! It is the same as 2+3=X; Solve for X.

If your son can use symbolism, he can do it. If his struggle point is fractions skip it and cycle back later. Just do not give him equations with fractions. Look to see what he can do, and then where those skills will take him. Let him build confidence. Putting something to the side is not giving up. It is not letting one difficulty stop you. Even if your equations are not more complicated than 2+3=x or 2+X=5, it is OK. He is still doing algebra, and he can be proud of it. Complexity can always come later. If you can get further, great! The ,main thing is that he feels more confident and that he makes progress. There is nothing magical about the curriculum order. Some of it builds, but not all of it does. Order is not important for all of it. My son does all sorts of math he was taught at home, out of order. Nothing bad has happened. If your son gets some concepts easier than others, work on those for awhile.

Yeah, that's pretty much what we've been doing when we aren't actually "working on fractions." I even do the math for him for harder algebra stuff, letting him do what he can do, since he is interested. I guess I can look at it with different criteria - instead of the idea being he'll be able to do subtraction with mixed numbers with borrowing on his own, the idea is just here we are being calm and working on math. And I guess we could keep that up to some degree his whole life, just for enrichment, without the idea having to be that we are working toward him mastering it.

Don't think you have to give up on him mastering it. Just as you have been doing, shake up the order, and don't get bogged down in what he does not get right now. That is not the same as giving up.

My son has a lot of splintered skills. We accelerate the things he is good at and sometimes pause in the things he isn't and go back. Math happens to be my son's thing, but even then we do not go in order. I accelerate the things he is good at and circle back. Sometimes there is a concept he is not quite grasping, and we move on to some other thing. Sometimes I am surprised by something he doesn't get, that in my mind is at the same level as stuff he does get and just as surprised at something more advanced that he does get.

The curriculum order even in math is not set in stone. I have been looking at the requirements per grade trying to figure out what to use in home school, and I find that I am not going to stay in one particular grade for math. Prior to Common Core (and even with the states opting out of common core) there are topics that are introduced at different grades in different places.

I would make a t-chart with math skills he has mastered and those he seems stuck on so you can figure out a short list of math topics that seem within grasp or can be adapted to be in grasp.

This is not giving up in mastery. You may even find you accelerate some topic due to interest and or uneven aptitude. This is fine.

In our case, our big problem is reading comprehension. My son can decode like nobody's business, but we have issues with comprehending anything that is not literally stated. I know I am going to get stuck on some of these things, and I may have to back to simpler texts for those things. That doesn't mean we will not be reading grade-level or above texts at all because we can work on grade level and above vocab and summarizing etc. It just means we have to work unevenly.

It is not giving up.

I was never very good with math, one of my biggest problems was I never mastered the basics when my teachers wanted me to do higher level math. one of my other problems I could never remember how to do problems unless it was applied to real world things, if I could not apply it I just did not care. if I did not care I would never remember it. if you dont master the basics first it makes the upper level maths really hard

Is the problem just with fractions, or math facts as well? How far can he get with word problems and other concepts if he were allowed to use a calculator for computation?

There is a math software program developed for visual learners. It is completely nonverbal and would be very different from anything else you have tried.

The demo on the website is actually on fractions! http://www.mindresearch.net/play/

Zette's post also reminded me, even if you table the harder parts of fractions, that does not preclude you from continuing to do "kitchen math" which really lends itself to fractions, and is visual. If you "misplace: (in my house the misplacing is not in quotes) some of your measuring cups he can help you come up with different ways to get 3 cups of flour, with only a 1/4 cup or a 1/3 cup or something. It is a practical way to do it and can help supplement your manipulative work.

If he gets stuck at the point where you are supposed to dump the manipulatives, just reintroduce them. That is where I would not jump ahead, if he is not ready. To address Chris' point, there are times you can't jump over something. You can jump from sub-subject to another, but while doing fractions you can't skip to symbolic, if he doesn't get the manipulative part, or skip to multiplication if he doesn't get the addition.

If you want to tell us specifically what he gets 100% and where he falters in fractions, we could give you more specific advice. Even if you have to show him how a pizza is divided up, that is something.

I don't know if you've tried this yet, but one last kind of tutor to try for any math subject is someone who does math or science or engineering like professional, like college or graduate student studying and researching these kinds of subjects, because they may have different approach from tutors with background in education or non-science subjects, and I have had students who are super bad at math, but they understand a lot more when I (science person) teach them, while understanding nothing from teachers with non-science background, as ways of thinking and teaching are different. Amongst most teachers, I find very rigid procedural thinking and teaching and inability to break things down and build things up for students to understand. Also, I remember when I was in high school, and my father (scientist) explained some science concepts to me, and this was not his field of science, but he explained the concepts so much better and clearer and shorter than my science teacher who had been teaching that subject for 30 years. And I explained the same way to my friends, and they got it too.

Thanks everybody. Here's how it usually goes: We start a problem, say multiplying fractions. I show him and have him look at the example. Maybe he's even just watched a Khan academy video on it. He then forgets to multiply numerator to numerator so I remind him (sometimes I remind as it's happening and sometimes after) and then he forgets what 9 times 8 is and has to write out all the multiples, and he can't remember the multiples so he has to count on his fingers, but he often doesn't have one-to-one correspondence when he counts on his fingers so he still gets it wrong. I help, we progress. He gets an answer that has to be simplified but then he forgets how to divide - like he was doing 23 divided by 3 for a problem the other day and he got 17. I had him show his work and he put 17 in the spot for the quotient and then said remainder 8 which isn't even 23 minus 17. So we started over and I reminded him how to divide and that it's the 6 that goes in the quotient spot and then 6 times 3 is 18 and that goes under the dividend so you can subtract... Etc. Sometimes when he does the subtraction for the division he forgets how to subtract, such as going left to right, forgetting to borrow, etc. So it just winds up going way way way back most of the time.

But sometimes he can do a complex fractions problem perfectly. He seems to need to be in some sort of heightened state, like if an outside teacher is watching him or if he's in a hurry to get computer time. Under stress he performs much better.

We do a lot of just talking about stuff and that's slightly better than when he actually has numbers in front of him. And his math facts are getting better. But that's just a basic idea of what all goes wrong. Word problems are worse. So I can give him the numbers or give him a calculator but that's not the entire problem at all.

We had a great tutor, a young 19 year old boy who's in an engineering program. He was GREAT. But he went back to school.

thanks all!

Try this: print out a times table and have him use that (sliding two fingers along until he finds the answer) instead of his fingers or a calculator - it may work for him. This is one of DS's accommodations at school - he's supposed to have a times table. That way he won't get as lost, but still has to do something to figure it out other than using a calculator. (Obviously, our kids are different - this works for us and is worth trying, but if he starts melting down when you try it, it may just not work for him)

If that works for you, I again recommend the website Skillswise - they have a times table fill-in. The idea is to get a visual "trick" of the answer - if it's placed spatially it may help him remember better than other ways.

Another recommendation was the video game Rocket Math, but it's really geared towards much younger children and didn't work for us.

Thanks everybody and thanks momsparky. He has a printed times table with him most of the time - sometimes we work without it. With multi step problems he gets confused with it because the act of looking to it and sliding his finger along I guess disrupts his chain of thought and once he finds what he's looking for he forgets why he needed it. But he fills it in on paper, does them online, and they help great for say a two digit multiplication problem. But often with fractions, say he's looking at it to find a common denominator, when he finds it, he'll think it's the new numerator for one of the equivalent fractions, for an example. The same thing happens with a calculator - he forgets what the answer is for. For now I just remind him and try to model the process but it does make me wonder - say he's 20 and still needs that kind of assistance, I'm thinking we'd just not bother with math at that point. Other than to help him if he needed it with counting change or measuring something or balancing his checkbook if he has one.

I'll try that skillwise website, thanks.

Today he had a session with his special ed teacher. He was flying thru division facts. When they were done he told her there is a little code in the upper corner of the flash card and that he figured out that the answer is part of the code and that he'd been using it the whole time. LOL. When we work on facts he's actually really good now but over half the time when he's actually doing a math problem he struggles with the facts. But he can rattle them off orally or write them out or answer from flash cards pretty well. But when knowing them is a part of something else, that's when he really struggles.