Whining vs. Not Whining: Where's the Distinction?

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Parents of WP, enlighten me on something. I've been reading on a bunch of parenting forums (not WP) about teaching kids to ask for things without whining. Some advice gets as extreme as pretending not to understand the child if he/she is whining, or making him/her repeat the request over and over again until it's said in a non-whiny voice. For aspie kids, that's asking for a meltdown, but fair enough, I get the reasoning behind it. Consider, for example, this: "Mommy/Daddy, I'm thirsty; can you buy me this bottle of Gatorade?" Which one is it? Was the kid whining, or genuinely asking for their physical need to be met? (i.e. to quench their thirst) What about: "Mommy/Daddy, can I have a cookie? Please." (and it's 15 minutes before dinner) Is it whining, or does the child simply like cookies?

Where does distinction lie between whining and not whining? Is it the tone of voice? Is it the choice of words? Is it the assertiveness level of the request? Is it something else? How exactly is the child supposed to distinguish the two? While I developed some sympathy toward hardline measures in parenting during the last two years, this still baffles me. I don't disagree that knowing how to ask for something without whining is a useful skill to teach. But it just seem like an easy cop-out: To deny any request that the parent doesn't like, they can simply say "Nope, you're whining!", whether or not the child was actually whining. It seems like my parents used that cop-out many a time, even when I was very thirsty, although honestly, I don't even know anymore.

There is still hope (for the kids). NT kids will intuitively pick up on what their parents respond to the best, and use it to their advantage. Aspie kids can, with some difficulty, learn to parrot back their parents' preferred tone of voice and/or choice of words. (I wasn't very good at that.) But this still doesn't really answer the question: what distinguishes whining from not whining? Knowledgeable minds, please share.

It's the tone of voice. Also my mom used to say don't whine, and I think it's explicit if the parent says to the child 'ask me in your normal tone of voice, not in a whiny voice' or telling them they are not going to listen until they stop whining. I don't think it's a cop out. It's them trying to get their kid to not whine. My husband and I and my mom will tell our son to use words, no (imitates his cries here and him going "eh eh eh." That is how kids develop their language, you encourage it and make them use words so how is this any different than getting a kid to not whine ?

It's possible you were whining and weren't intending too, some ASD kids have troubles with their tone so they may sound like they are whining even though they are not. I knew a boy who may have had an ASD and it always sounded like he was whining when he talked. So your parents may have thought you were whining due to your tone and they never told you it was your tone?

I think whining is 100% tone of voice. However, I remember it being basically impossible to control and really frustrated with the request.


...and now I have the same exact discussions with my AS son. My NT daughter whines more but is better able to figure out how to stop. I tend to use the wording, "use your polite voice" (which has been previously referenced) instead of "no whining" which tends to elicit a lecture about what whining is and isn't from my son which never ends well.

I think these responses are patches (often necessary) but just patches to the larger problem. Often kids are whiney when they feel defeated...and the parental reaction often just leaves them further defeated and on and on the whiney cycle goes.

Sometimes if I don't eat I get whiny as an adult. This is more because my blood sugar drops. I thought it was tone of voice, but some very strict parents think any sort of complaining is equal to whining. So if you have any problem ever, and voice it, it's whining. I don't think this is correct. If a child or adult asks for a drink or healthy food, I would ask them to use their "nice" voice and show them how. If they were "whining" to go to the bathroom or some VERY immediate need, I would not bother correcting until after.

Children often learn to communicate based on what gets them what they want or need. If your child doesn't know what whining is, you can teach them with your own tone of voice. I think it's important not to yell at them when teaching this or make them feel like they are a bad child. After all, most children do this. I think the tone for whining is a very squeaky, nasally, or drawn out voice.

As far as the cookie goes, I don't think it matters if they are whining or not. Your child is asking please, so unless it's drawn out like "Can I have a cooooooooooookie, Pleeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaase?" it's probably not whining. However, sometimes what a child wants is not the best thing for them. You have to set rules like "No cookies until after dinner, OK?" They may get upset, but they have to eat their dinner first. Sure, they may really like cookies, and learn not to whine when asking, but it's not teaching them good eating habits.

For me, its whining, if you try to involve that "I am sooooo pooor stuff somehow into it." So you try manipulating your opposite by trying to create feels of sorrow and pity in the opposite.

In my book tone of voice means nothing. The first time any question is asked it is legitimate. I give my answer, what ever it is. Yes, no, I'm busy, in a minute, never, of course... whatever. Any SUBSEQUENT asking of the same question, repeatedly, in any to of voice and with any repeating... that's whining. So I always respond the first time a question is asked. After that the first time I say, " Did you just ask that?" and when they ay "yes" I say, "And what was my answer?" And then they scowl. If they ask again after that I ignore for awhile but if they persist they get some kind of punishment.

Alrighty, so far, it seems like the diving line lies in the tone of voice, according to most replies. Fair enough. I see a problem with that. To the best of my knowledge, the whining tone is higher-pitched than the non-whining tone. But children, even boys, talk in a naturally higher register of voice than adults, because their vocal chords are shorter and vibrate at higher frequencies. So when the child's voice is high-pitched by default, it becomes very hard to see the difference between whining and not whining, because all requests are said in a high-pitched tone. And that's where the cop-out can creep in.

On that note, wouldn't it be nice if aspie kids could take voice training classes, where they can learn to ask for things in a non-whiny tone? They can and should learn to implement tactics like these:
1) Relaxing your vocal chords, which lengthens them slightly, to set your voice to a lower register, to sound more assertive.
2) Speaking with your diaphragm instead of just your vocal chords, to make your voice project more.
3) Lowering the infection at the end of sentences, so they sound like polite orders, rather than questions.
4) Using clipped vowels, to eliminate any whiny, drawn-out sounds.

Sadly, that kind of voice training classes, other than for acting in a school play, is largely a pipe dream. Also, these tactics are hard to implement for aspie kids. For example, relaxing, even just the vocal chords, is very difficult when you're living in a world that seems to hate your guts. The other three tactics are easier to manage, but take a lot of time to learn. And using clipped vowels may attract the "you talk funny!" bullying.

CWA's answer goes in a different direction, which in interesting. If the whining is about repetition where it's not supposed to happen, you can't really ask the child to repeat the request in a normal tone, because the tone is never in the equation to begin with. It's more about being a pest and/or needlessly complaining. Now that's a great way to define whining, with no gray areas.

Whining is tone of voice plus intent to manipulate.

It was always pretty clear to me-- IF I didn't let what other people were shouting get mixed up in it.

A very small child's normal speaking voice is a lispy little whine-- they cannot help it and nothing can be done about it before the age of about 4 (at the earliest).

I did do the "Can't understand you when you whine" thing with my oldest-- but I wasn't faking. For whatever reason, that whiny voice trips stress hormones and sets off that nasty prodromal meltdown feeling in my head, and I really CAN'T process what they're saying as well when they whine (or yell, at least close to my ear or in a small room). So-- I had to learn to put up with whining toddlers (they have really short vocal cords and really poor muscle control), and my kids had to learn not to whine at a relatively early age.

Hint-- You can't just say, "Don't whine, I can't understand you." And you can't lose your temper (at least, not deliberately or often). You have to explain what a whine is. You have to explain WHY you can't understand them when they whine ("It hurts my ears" or "Your words get all mushed together" or "My brain just won't read it"). And you have to demonstrate a whine versus a non-whine.

And when they manage to ask without whining, you have to drop what you're doing and give them whatever they just ACTUALLY ASKED FOR. Because this is pure Skinner at this point-- rewards work, frustration doesn't, and stressed kids whine. Their vocal cords tighten up and they can't help it.

It takes MONTHS, even with a typical kid. Expect meltdowns-- look, KIDS HAVE MELTDOWNS SOMETIMES. People need to get over the idea that kids should never melt down, just because it makes adults uncomfortable. It's ridiculous, and it's worth changing, because it would be good for the mental health of Homo sapiens typicalis, Homo sapiens autisticus, and Homo sapiens in general. Hell-- adults have meltdowns sometimes. It's called A PRESSURE VALVE. If an adult can't ever have a meltdown, you get things like a woman beating her child with a hairbrush, while speaking in a bright, calm voice, with a smile on her face (I've actually seen it, and it was one of the most frightening sights of my life).

Think of a person as a pressure canner-- on top of a pressure canner, there are three vents.

One has a little button in it that pops up when all the air has been exhausted and the device has reached proper processing temperature-- think of an adult monitoring children, interacting with other people, getting through the grocery store, and doing it all PROPERLY as this state.

At that point, you drop a weight over the second vent-- the one that is spewing a cone of steam. This keeps the steam inside, making the canner even hotter so all the C. botulinum and Ptomaine die and your food is safe. Think of the weight as the control mechanisms adults use to keep from screaming-- at their kids, at each other, at the milk cooler when the grocery store is out of generic 1% milk. Little kids are a pressure canner without a weight-- sometimes, JUST LIFE makes them spew steam.

Very shortly after you drop the weight on, it starts to rock, letting out little bits of steam and making that hissing spitting pressure-canner noise that drives me to the edge of sensory overload even though I love canning. When it does that, it's exhausting little tiny bits of steam-- and THAT KEEPS THE PRESSURE INSIDE THE CANNER DOWN TO A LEVEL THAT THE VESSEL CAN STILL CONTAIN. Think of those little puffs of steam as things people do that are off-color-- the gallows humor, the sharp comments, the sharp tones of voice, the little tics and stims and things that keep us (all of us, actually) from blowing our stacks.

Because-- If the main valve (the one that weight is sitting on) is clogged, then the pressure doesn't exhaust, and the THIRD vent comes into play. This one has a little rubber plug in it-- and it's called the "Overpressure Release Vent." If the canner does not properly vent steam and pressure builds to an unsafe level, the rubber plug pops out (and goes flying across the room) and steam comes SHOOTING out of the canner (and ruins a spot of drywall about the size of a saucer in your kitchen ceiling). Don't be close to the canner if this happens-- you WILL get steam burns. Think of MELTDOWN as the "Overpressure Release Vent"-- even if you use the canner properly, sometimes a jar will burst in there, the main vent will get clogged, and the Overpressure Release Vent will come into play.

Be glad it does-- because, if it wasn't there, THE CANNER WOULD CONTINUE TO BUILD PRESSURE UNTIL IT f*****g EXPLODED. When it happens to a pressure canner, it's called a bomb-- when it happens to people, it's called a psychotic break.

Sorry-- You didn't ask for the dissertation on pressure canners and human beings. But-- the "Avoid Meltdowns, Meltdowns Are Bad" thing REALLY GETS TO ME, both as an Aspie and as a Mom.

It's working on my kids so far-- but my kids are either marginally NT, BAP, ADHD, or barely on the spectrum. So the ages at which you might try it would vary, and your mileage will vary too. The best (and least often given, it seems) advice here is, I think, apply your own common sense.

I have sensory issues with whining also, but I am not strict about it, b/c my sensory issues with it thankfully, are relatively mild. If it gets bad enough, I will generally just tell my son I need a break and give myself a time out.

My son has issues with tone of voice, and I am not necessarily adept at teaching, nor is he adept at learning this, so I figured I would let the speech teacher handle it. They did not make much progress on it, I think he is just gradually outgrowing it.

I explain to him logically why this is not an effective means of communication, b/c it is annoying and people tend not to be persuaded by annoying things. I don't give him what he wants any faster just b/c it is annoying, b/c the best I can do is not give him actual incentives to do it. This way I know it will not become a strategy.

Tone of voice that is annoying is different from an attempt at manipulation. Now that he is home, I don't really have to worry about explaining to others how to interpret him, so I can worry even less about this and take our time.

A merely annoying tone of voice, without a clear intention to manipulate, does not constitute whining and should not be interpreted or treated as such. And I don't deal stubbornly with whining in the face of physical pain-- the desperate need to pee, being miserably hot or cold, begging for food when supper is late, being stuck walking in the pouring rain, coming home from sledding with fingers chilled to the bone, et cetera.

"I neeeeeeed to peeeeee..." is not the same as "I waaaaaaaaaant mooooooore juuuuuuuice riiiiiiiiiight noooooooooow!!"

Also put in mind that kids also whine when they are tired or hungry so I don't think penalizing them for it won't do them any good. Just give them food or put them down for a nap. Sometimes you need to know why your kid is whining before you discipline them. Kids will also whine when they are over tired. I know whining drives me crazy so I do something about it rather it's feeding him or putting him to bed to solve it otherwise I can then penalize him for it. I think whining drives lot of people crazy even my own mother can't stand to hear it. All I know is if I have to keep hearing it, it drains me and it makes me feel like I am going to go crazy hearing the tone I can't take it anymore and it makes me irritable and short tempered. That is what whining does to me. I don't know if it's normal or sensory reaction and I finally had an outburst to my husband and ordered him to help me and used a threat. Really I have to threaten to do child abuse just to get my husband off his damn ass to help out and do his part of the parenting. He will tell me to come get him if I need any help, I do do that and guess what, he hands the kid back to me just so he can go back to his f*****g computer game and leaving it all to me again. I don't even bother asking him anymore until I am under my wits end and feeling like I am going to kick the s**t out of our child. I even wonder how do aspies and NTs manage to be single parents because I certainly can't see myself doing it. How do they manage to hear their shrieks and screams and whining without freaking out and how do they handle their own emotions and overloads about it. I shouldn't have to threaten child abuse just to get my husband to finally do his job as a parent but sadly that's the way it goes.

This is actually something most autistic kids work on at school with their speech therapists - but, I did learn a lot of these sorts of things in acting class as an adult in college.

I think parents react most to the tone of voice (high pitch, long, drawn-out words) but whining can also be about word choices and about whether or not the request is appropriate. I've found that most often the best response is to mirror back the request in a non-whiny tone of voice, e.g. "Do you mean 'Mom, may I please have something to eat?'" With my own son, sometimes we make him repeating it back to us part of the rule.

You're right in that without explicit instruction, it would be very difficult to get this idea across to many kids, let alone kids with a communication disorder.

The insights offered so far were very interesting. I always considered "whining" to be a parenting tool: a convenient excuse to say no to something a child wants but can't have (e.g. "we're not buying candy because you were whining"), as well as a social acceptable way for the parent to justify it to themselves (e.g. "of course I said no to buying candy; he/she was whining"). Not unlike the "he's a nice guy, but there's no chemistry" excuse in dating, or filing for sexual harassment when an ugly guy touched a female colleague on the arm. I guess I was wrong about that. Well, maybe mostly wrong.

It looks like there's more to the word "whining" than what I said in the previous paragraph. I suppose it's best to drop that word from the vocabulary altogether, at least when talking to one's child. It's as loaded and ambiguous as the term "nice guy" in dating. Also, like it's been pointed out before, in order not to whine, a child would need to: (1) relax his vocal chords to lower his voice register, (2) speak with his diaphragm to project his voice, (3) lower the inflection at the end of sentences to sound more assertive, and (4) clip the vowels to avoid the drawn-out whining effect. Doing these four of these at once, and doing it all correctly, is a difficult task, especially for an aspie child! ("What's clipping vowels?" you ask. Listen to the way Effie Trinket talks in the Hunger Games movies, while ignoring her high register and the trailing S sounds.)

I'm sure they have voice training classes, but I doubt anyone will formally train kids not to whine. There are a lot more NTs than aspies; NT kids can intuitively pick up what tone of voice their parents like best, and therefore have no use for such classes. Aspie kids, unfortunately, are SOL, until they memorize the "correct" tone through trial and error. So even if such classes can be organized for aspie kids, we'd still need to find parents willing to pay for them in this economy.