Being ourselves, Aspartners, and Jack McClellan

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https://www.newgon.com/wiki/Jack_McClellan

Are we as horrible as those on aspartners claim? Are we as horrible as this man who is a self-admitted pedophile? Telling one to Be himself is just so damn confusing.

I am so confused and disturbed by this and it bothers me and gnaws at me like an itch I can't scratch. How is being true to oneself always a virtue if it causes harm especially to children?

Those at aspartners keep claiming we're narcissists. Are we really narcissists? Are we as evil as they portray us to be? How do I rectify this? Even when I quit going there I'm still disturbed.

I think the partners they were with may have been horrible. Aspies are not immune to that. And being true to yourself is horses**t. I keep telling you that. I think some people may use it as an excuse to be jerks and not show respect or work on their habits or flaws. Some of those women act like nazis. I know not all of them are bad but the ones who are stand out the most.

What does this McClellan character have to do with anything?

Introversion and intense individuality combined with unusual behaviors possibly seem like narcissism to the ignorant.

The whole point is about "being true to yourself" and Jack is a pedophile so that would mean he can harm children if he wants because of the phrase. But no we are not horrible as him and he has admitted he would harm children if there was no law about it. It's the law that holds him back from hurting a child. I think the man is an idiot though because he admits it all but yet gets upset that he is being watched and being kept track of, even by authorities and alerting parents he is in the area when he moves there and he thinks they are taking away his right of freedom of speech and he had a website telling other pedophiles where they can find children and it has kept getting shut down and he whines how they are taking away his freedom of speech rights. If he could be true to himself, he would be allowed to harm children and keep his website up and continue making parents uncomfortable.

But I think it was a bad example to compare him to us but maybe his point was we aren't allowed to be true to ourselves either like he isn't allowed to either.

I think being true to yourself actually means stick to your own opinions, your own thoughts, don't do things just because everyone else is doing it. An example would be you are surrounded by other kids doing drugs, don't start doing drugs just because they are. Don't dress up in goth just to be like everyone else, don't force yourself to get into things you're not interested in just because someone is into it. Don't believe in something just because everyone else does or don't change your opinion to make it the same as everyone else's. But whenever I hear that phrase now is now a knee jerk reaction because of my ex boyfriend and the fact I have seen aspies say they can't be themselves meaning they have to use skills they have learned or use what everyone else uses like not saying something.

But being true to yourself gets taken literal by people on the spectrum so they may think they don't have to work on any flaws they have or social skills or anger issues, etc. Teaching a kid table manners and having them follow them is not changing who they are. But some people, ASD or not, may feel they can't be themselves because they want to be an as*hole, they want to bully and belittle people, be mean and being denied that right makes them feel they can't be themselves. Yeah this is another reason why I hate that phrase. Hey would you tell a bully to be themselves? I think not or else you are basically telling them to be a bully because it's "who they are."

I know you keep telling me and empirical evidence tells me so contrary to what I thought was. It still bugs me though because I feel like certain details are missing.

Have you ever seen the Matrix? Do you remember the discussion that Morpheus had with Neo about why they do not yank older people out of the Matrix? How would feel if what you were raised with, your very reality, turned out not to be true at all? For me, this is what I am dealing with now. What I thought was true is not true at all.

When you try to understand this "new" reality you're in you see layers upon layers of contradictions and beliefs that make absolutely no sense.

Listen and watch this music video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCMHmDnfD6I&feature=kp

Look at the bizarreness of this and watch the movie "A Scanner Darkly" as well. This video and the movie is a symbolic representation of what I am perceiving about our society.

What I am being told is to use Society as the underlying rubric by various people. My question is this can the rubric be faulty as well? If the rubric has some faults then what is beyond the societal rubric? Who and what is the ultimate definer of what truth and virtue is? If part of delusional is to think in a rational manner is society the final authority on what is rational? Didn't the Soviet Union lock up dissidents and considered them insane and irrational?

What is greater than society and what is the greatest law, rationality, virtue that governs all? What is beyond society itself?

To put it briefly, nature is the ultimate authority, and to be virtuous is to work with nature rather than against it. I mean Mother Nature, not so much human nature, for the latter is far too often in opposition with the former in our world, although that is not inevitably the case.

No I have never seen The Matrix.

But I think it was a bad example to compare him to us but maybe his point was we aren't allowed to be true to ourselves either like he isn't allowed to either.

I apologize if I caused offense. If I came across like an as*hole I apologize.

So, what it really means is don't follow the group if it will lead me to a negative outcome. What it really is saying is don't always do what is popular and do it because everyone else is doing. So, why not just say then that just because something is popular to do or to believe does not mean one should do it or believe. Instead, one should think critically to determine if it is good or not. Why don't people just say it like this? Why couch it up in such a vague phrase that is hackneyed?



I despise it myself. I have been to rage management before and I had to use the techniques with certain family members. One of the techniques was to take a few deep breaths. I asked them how to do something and they told me to be myself. I was able to control my rage and meltdown. I know you said it is BS and I agree it is BS because empirical evidence seems to state this. I just wish the phrase would just go the heck away.

Okay, that's fine. I have been thinking about and I may know what I'm doing wrong and why I over think and complicate things. For me, what happens is I get lost in the ideas, metaphysics, theory, and abstractions without looking at the empirical.

This is my personality type. http://www.16personalities.com/intp-personality

These are supposedly my strengths and weaknesses and some may be stronger and weaker then others.

http://www.16personalities.com/intp-str ... weaknesses

I bet there is a strong correlation of an aspie's personality type to his current success.


What is your personality type if you do not mind me asking?

Do your mental health a favor and stop reading that site. They cannot be saved from themselves. They have chosen anger and nothing can be done. Perhaps their partners really were that bad (which would not make it the norm) and perhaps they feeding each other into false perceptions. Regardless, I learned long ago that hearing what these people had to say was not positive or helpful to me in any way, and that any energy I spent trying to reason with them was wasted. So don't go there!

In serious answer to your question, not ASD people are like that. Having ASD does not make you a narcissist; my son certainly is not one. You've read these boards: many people with ASD are highly sensitive to the needs of others and, in fact, desperately want to help humanity to the point of being easy swindle victims. While ASD certainly can make it difficult to know what is needed from you in any situation, it doesn't create or negate the desire. The only thing ASD does, perhaps, is make whatever natural personality and tendencies you have more extreme. But, still, you have to start from having that personality or tendency to start with, and you are not like those partners discussed at that site!

And, no being true to oneself is not always a virtue. Like the popular song says, "we are made of greed," yet we don't all act that way for the simple fact that life is much happier if we learn to rise above it. And some natural tendencies are, most definitely, required to be squashed, simply because they can and will do damage. Not harming others always takes precedence as a virtue over "being true to oneself."

For the record, "be yourself," means don't try to pretend to be something you are not.

Examples:

In a job interview, they ask what time of day you do your best work. You know it is in the evening but assume they probably want you to say morning. Being yourself would be answering, "evening, but I can adapt to whatever is required." Because, truth is, there is no right or wrong answer and you could actually blow it by trying to say what they want instead of what is real.

On a date, you find out that the person you like really loves sports. You don't care for sports. Being yourself means admitting you aren't as big a fan as they are, but of course if you really like someone you will go along to support their interests (assuming you would, of course, but that sort of adaptation IS part of dating). Too often people want to make a good impression so they lie, and pretend they like sports, too, which is basically doomed to failure.

"Be yourself" does NOT mean:
break the law
defy all social expectations for civil behavior
harm others

DW_A_Mom, Do you know what? I love your answer and I love League_Girl's answer as well. I think I may an a partial answer to my own question as to how to live with virtue. We have to do self-restraint and self-discipline within ourselves. This makes me wonder if there are two selves: the animal self and spiritual self. The animal self is the one who is passionate, emotionally based, unrestrained. The spiritual self is the sense of reason, the sense of justice, logic and the rational. The spiritual self has to constrain the animal self.

Okay, I get where you're coming from. I am more of an afternoon person. I would say to them while trying to look at the bridge between their eye brow this "Sir or Mam, I am not a morning person but I am willing and grab a cup of coffee for the road, arrive here on time and suck it up." After that, I would say "You will receive nothing less than excellent work from me no matter what time of day it is."



Actually, it is true that I do not care for sports. I would go to support their interests. There is a way to be honest with people and still respect and care about their feelings? You break things down so well. I appreciate it.



Even breaking the law is kind of confusing. Didn't Rosa Parks break the law? Are there times it is moral and justified to break the law?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apxSHcRcqdo[/youtube]

League_Girl, I watched this episode of the Steve Wilkos show. Is "Mighty Joe" similar to your ex?

Why do I feel this extreme antipathy towards "Mighty Joe?" I really can't stand him. My inside muscles tense up when I listen to him and see him. If he is like your ex then I can see why. Is he like your ex?

cubedemon, yeah, there's a lot of behavioral overlap between AS and narcissism, but what's going on underneath differs. Whether it makes any practical difference depends on who you're talking to.

AS in a partner/employee/parent/co-parent really can be very difficult, because often there's this utter blindness to how the world does things, and also a tendency to say/do deeply hurtful things. Both of these are completely unintentional, but the people on the receiving end of it can have a very rough ride indeed. It doesn't help that too often, the person with AS becomes totally defensive and shuts down when this is brought up.

It's useful to be able to recognize both the deficits and the social problems they can cause others. I just had a performance review -- one of my supervisor's comments is that I'm often "overly blunt". This is totally true. I also frequently sound condescending and have little control over my face. I'm aware of these things, I just can't do anything about them because I'm *completely unaware* of when it's happening and what to do instead that'd be satisfactory. My poor boss thinks that mentioning the problem will save the day, here, but sometime between now and next year I'll just have to break it to her (no doubt overly bluntly): you did not hire a diplomat, training is not going to help, and it's best just to keep me out of situations where sensitivity is necessary. She's a very good HR person, and if she wants to keep me around, I've no doubt she'll find ways of using my strengths while, you know, keeping me out of the way. My job will be to work with her on that, and keep my mouth shut when my opinion hasn't been asked. Also to express gratitude now and then for her being willing and able to work with me.

Bluntness, rage, neglect, deep self-centeredness, refusal or inability to pick up on parts of life that most deem necessary to handle...yeah, these things are rough on others.

I went and had a look at that Aspartners site after you posted, and wound up feeling for both the posters and their spouses. What complete trainwrecks of marriages. It seemed to me that the people there had just been hurt too badly, and for too long, to be in a spot to care about why their partners are as they are. Had someone explained to them up front what they were getting into when they married, I bet most of them would've gotten out long ago. It's not what they wanted, not what they could live with.

I know that this often rubs people on here totally the wrong way, and there's all this explosive: But why did they marry the guy if they didn't like what he was!! ! It's their own fault!! ! etc. And the problem there's an assumption that just because you're being open and honest, other people can understand what you mean by it. That's a disastrous attitude to take. There's no universal understanding of anything. Other people interpret the world through their own sets of filters, myths, psyches, experiences. If you're saying something unusual, or behaving in unusual ways, then no matter how plain and open you may be about it, the odds that others will have any idea what you actually mean by it -- really not good. And it's not their fault.

That's why these Aspartner people are so beat up. They hung around in situations that were very bad for them for a long time, deriving wrong -- but completely defensible and ordinary -- meanings from their partners' behaviors, blaming themselves, sucking it up when their AS partners blamed them for all sorts of things. Now at last they get it, sort of, and they're furious for all the hurt and for having accepted all that behavior, all that blame, for so long.

And I totally get it. I watched my dad and ex do it up close, watched others from a safer distance. My mom wasn't a nice person, but I still feel really bad about the treatment she put up with from my dad. Even worse about the treatment his second wife's put up with. Did he mean harm, no, I don't believe he ever did. Totally not a mean guy.

It takes a really special, and well-informed, person to spot the problems and be able to name them, and say, okay, here's what's up, and here's what I need. And it also, I think, takes the willingness of the partner with AS to say, yeah, these things are real, and they don't mean I'm a horrible person, but we do need to work around these things, and I need to help in that.

Narcissism is a personality disorder. I am sure Aspies can be narcissists, but being a narcissist is not part of being an Aspie. It's part of having a disordered personality.

I think "be true to yourself" is meant to give people the courage to stand strong in their moral convictions. It is not intended to give people a free pass to do whatever the heck they please. You are sticking to too absolute of an interpretation of the phrase. I think it is easiest to just accept that it is not an absolute statement. The statement supposes that all people's "true selves" are inherently good. I find that to be a flawed and highly arguable belief.

Cubedemon, my friend, examine your statements from the outside looking in. "They keep claiming *we're* narcissists." Since when are *all* Aspies anything other than Aspies? You rectify it by noting that it is unfounded statement. Some aspies are narcissists, some are not. They are angry and bitter, some of them probably for good reason, but they are projecting their anger and hate in a very untargeted and loose manner.

Maybe it would help you to see the ignorance of their arguments by replacing "Aspies" with some less personal "categorizer" (i know its a made-up word). Would you be as troubled if they said "All Scandinavians are narcissists"? No, because you would recognize that it is an impossibly flawed statement, correct?