Violent Outburst but Can't Remember It?

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Hi all,
I have not been on here for about a year. Mainly because I've been busy, partly because things have been going fairly well with our son and I just didn't have extra time to get online much (new job, etc.)

Anyway, my son is 7, diagnosed ASD (HFA), Dysgraphia, and possibly something else going on. He is in 2nd grade but in 99th percentile for every subject and reading at a 5th grade level. He is bright.

Last year we had a couple of incidents at school where he got into a fight with another child; he 'crosses the line' too often physically. However, it is usually provoked. This year was going well (4 weeks in) and I was hoping for no more episodes. Wrong. Yesterday he apparently got into an argument with one of his friends on the playground and bit him. Hard. Broke skin and bruised. The thing that is worrying me is that in every case previously, he has been able to tell us what happened and that something was an accident or he did it on purpose, etc. He tells us straight up. This time, he said he does not remember anything except the other boy saying rude/mean things to him. He does not remember his own actions after (he says). From your experience, is this possible? Or is he just trying to not 'own up' to what he did.

I have been considering getting another psych evaluation for him, mostly because of mood swings. He has a lot of catastrophic thinking and will either erupt into tears or scream and get angry. It's been happening more. /-: He is currently not on any meds, and I am wondering whether or not he should be. Sigh. He already has a restricted diet: low sugar, no food coloring and little to no gluten, which helps. He recently had a thorough blood panel done, checking blood sugar levels, thyroid, etc. Everything came back clear.

Would love to hear your experiences/thoughts on this.

Catastrophic thinking, erupting in tears, screaming.....if he's getting that overwhelmed, then even if he remembers, he might have difficulty putting it into words for you. He has ASD, so there is some kind of communication problem. And it's just harder to communicate when one is upset.

As kids get older they start doing more playing with others heads. It might not even be intentional, but can be very confusing, very upsetting. So possibly he might be more upset by what other kids are doing, or increased social demands generally in 2nd grade.

So I just think if you think he knows what happened and is choosing not to say, you might be right he knows, but the situation of whatever provoked him may be too difficult to understand and he may not have words to talk about what he or the other child did.

I also think talking to him about how you handle frustration, giving him a appropriate direction may help more than trying to look at what he did wrong.

Do you feel confident even if he feels he's being tormented that no one is intentionally provoking your child?

No, this kid has definitely been provoking him. The teacher even knows that. However, I believe this child also has some undiagnosed issues. He (the child) is leaving next week, thankfully for my son's sake. For now, they both have been advised to not play with each other during recess. Doesn't help that one recess duty teacher was out sick, and the second recess duty teacher FORGOT she had duty. So no adults were supervising! Or most likely, it would not have escalated that far. Frustrating.

I don't feel good doing this, but when a child really is overwhelmed, being understanding seems to be the way to go. You can still disapprove of his actions, of course.

I remember the absolute horror and stunned shock I felt older than your son when other children misbehaved during unsupervised time and I think it's likely that he can tell you what happened in situations that make sense to him; that his saying he does not remember isn't avoidance of responsibility on his part so much as an inability to put into words what he does not yet have the social understanding to see.

Giving him words for what you know should help. If he has strong expectations for routines to be followed and for other people to follow rules, talking to him about the routine that has now been restored of there being a teacher available to supervise and how upsetting it is when other children don't follow rules may even release a torrent of words about what happened if you want to know. I would suggest being soothing and reassuring, it will help him gain self control. I think he just doesn't have words for what happened because it confuses him.

My son had a boy in 2nd grade that he had issues with, too. They eventually moved the other boy out of the class. I agree with Waterfalls that 2nd grade gets very tough socially.

Our son was never able to recall these incidents accurately even when adults said it was instigated by the other boy. I think in our case it wasn't memory, or deflecting blame so much as not understanding what happened and just guessing.

The few times that my daughter (13 year old AS) has had real meltowns, not temper tantrums - she does not remember most of what she said and did during the meltdown, so perhaps he was so overwhelmed he was running on instinct and doesn't recall it either.

He may not even be aware he did it. I don't know how it happens or what causes it. Even I don't know myself why I would do things and not be aware of it so I thought everyone was falsely accusing me of things. My mom used to tell me just because I don't remember doesn't mean it happened. After years of it being drilled into my head that I was not aware of things, I started to believe other kids when they would say I did stuff so I believed for two years I stabbed a classmate with a plastic fork and it got stuck in his skin. But then another kid told me it never happened and the kid just made it up to get attention and to sound cool. I wonder what the kid thought when he found out I admitted it. I am not sure what my parents could have done different to teach me I do things I am not aware of to keep me from being gullible believing anything people tell me I did this or that when I didn't because I thought "I must not have been aware I did this so it must be true I did it because they say so." I can relate to Butters on South Park when he believes he did things because he was told he did it.

I also don't have a memory of what I say when I get very upset. But I do say pretty hurtful things and I know this because I have been told. I may believe I said something a certain way but someone else will tell me that is not what I said, I said this instead. But honestly I do not know if that is how they interpreted it or if I am being delusional. Sadly people can take advantage of this and manipulate me and I suspect that is what my ex boyfriend did and I felt I was crazy and felt like taking a tape recorder with me everywhere and record all our talks so I can go back and see what I had said and what he had said. But if my mom says I say hurtful things, then it must be right because I trust her so I know she wouldn't manipulate me and delude my thoughts and make me doubt myself. I trust my husband too.

I never got punished by my parents for fighting back if I got provoked because I had been trying to ignore the kid and I told him or her to leave me alone, and I have walked away and none of that worked so finally bam. I think any kid can snap if provoked and they got pushed that far.

I am wondering if this may be accurate. He just can't put it into words because it was such an emotional moment. When asked further, he seems to not understand what happened or why he was even so angry with the other boy who was bothering him. Either way, we are suffering some of the consequences with the school and trying to figure out how best to help him manage this.

Does it go without saying that a second grade child with ASD who is having incidents where he gets physical needs to be more closely supervised than an average child (during less structured time at school anyway) even if he does not need other extra support?

I agree with this, also. Supervision helps deter attackers. It helps to have someone there to intercede, as well as to provide an account of what is going on.

Yes, for sure. The school has had repeated issues with lack of monitors or proper teacher supervision (forgetful teachers, distracted teachers, mistakes, etc.). This is hopefully being addressed.

Thank you, that's what I was trying to say. Supervision not only to stop child from getting physical, but very importantly to redirect any negativity and help him be appropriately involved if peers try to start anything. I still have frightening memories of what other certain children did to me when I wasn't being watched, and feel it's very important to protect kids.

This feels right to me, too. I know DS was constantly getting in trouble at this age for doing things and "not being sorry," and I'm realizing that he probably wasn't even aware of what happened. When frightened, he would go into this kind of lizard-brain fight-or-flight reactionary state, and I think he wasn't processing anything he did or said, so it shouldn't have surprised me that he didn't "remember" (and thus wouldn't apologize.)

I don't think that it's actually that they don't remember, just that the response is such an emotional one, and kids on the spectrum have such difficulty accessing and framing emotions that they can't quite figure out how to connect the dots, both in communicating what happened and in identifying it.

Was looking up "lizard brain" and found this article; even though it's directed at a completely different audience, I think it has some value: http://sustainable-leaders.com/3-simple ... consensus/

That makes sense and is probably the answer! I was worried (as was his teacher) that this was some strange seizure/blacking out thing. Now, days later, he says he does remember biting, just not what happened leading up to that. He knows he was being harrassed, he just can't put into words what was said and why he reacted that way. Kind of discouraged, but with better monitoring and awareness, hope things improve.

One of the most stressful things for me was learning that other children would intentionally hurt me and would lie. You can't communicate what you don't understand, and it's very hard to understand being harassed. It violates the rules, there's often an element of deception, and of course there's the harassment itself.

Don't be discouraged. He needs and deserves protection from real harassment, and a chance to learn how to respond to minor issues, and neither is happening without the extra supervision