I feel like I've become conditioned

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I spend a lot of time and effort to actively avoid the conditioning my parents and society at large tries to impose on me, but I think I may have been too late about it. I realized that someone stated the truth about something and I thought two things almost immediately: what a jerk, and he's correct. The what a jerk is what has me sad now. It's the average Neurotypical response. How can I recover from this conditioning?

Just the way you are doing it now, by being aware constantly. It will come more naturally after you have practiced looking at the world form your chosen perspective rather than your parents.
IMHO, you are never too late, ever, to change.

It's a gift to be able to see things from more than one point of view. Which point of view you act on is up to you.

I have said 'what a jerk' sometimes with different wording many times when someone tells me something mean/nasty someone else did, I did not know it was a specifically neurotypical response, figured it is just a response that makes sense.

What autistic people aren't supposed to think anyone's a jerk or that anyone else is ever correct? I do not think this is anything to do with conditioning, maybe worrying too much about being conditioned.

Context might be helpful b/c someone can be correct and still be a jerk. You might have been right on both counts; or you might have been correct that he was right and just conditioned to think he was a jerk. It is hard to say without knowing context.

As for how to move past unhealthy conditioning; it probably requires a kind of reprogramming by analysis, which it sounds like you are already doing.

You beat me to it.

Yes exactly, I mean think of the differences here:

You're a fat fatso!

You're far over your ideal weight


Now both are true, but one is a jerkish way of saying it.

Actually both of those statements might be jerkish. Were you asked? Are you a health care advisor? Is it helpful? Is it relevant?

I am fat. I'm currently too fat for me, but even at my personal ideal, healthy attractive weight I'm technically overweight. My MIL is fat phobic. She never hesitates to tell me how fat I am or make a sly comment that she thinks is clever and concealed. Like I need her to point this out? Like I don't know already?

My advice?? DON'T. They conditioned you to think and react like an NT because it's an NT world and they want you to be able to survive in it. Be grateful.

You don't have to be a judgmental ass. You can use your "red eyes" to have more patience, and more compassion, for people than most folks who have not struggled ever bother to exercise (at least, until they fall down and can't get up)...

...but don't try to avoid the "white eyes" that you've been trained to have. They did that for a reason. That reason is YOU.

I would suggest that, when you have simultaneous "Aspie" and "NT" thoughts, you express the one that is kindest.
But hold onto the other thought, too, because it's also telling you something important.

It's funny you should mention this - I have recently come to realize that almost all of my family (including me) are on the spectrum, and my parents were the most severely impacted. Their defense mechanism was to hang onto their difference as superiority - and they both became college professors in order to solidify that position.

Problem is, sometimes NTs are right. So my parents wound up ostracizing anyone they disagreed with, which wound up being more and more people - including their own children. Eventually the isolation this caused lead to a catastrophe because nobody was close enough to them to see it coming.

So, while I do hear what you are saying about NT conditioning, as an older person presumably on the spectrum I try to weigh the social response of an NT person against my own preference for logic and rules, and think about how to combine both paths to get the end result I want. In other words, I try to factor in social information as well as factual, more binary information, and I try always to be open to the possibility that I am wrong; if I succeed in doing that, I think it gives me a better result.

It was very long journey from "the cool kids are better than me" to "I'm better than the cool kids, screw them" to "Let me see if what they are saying has value or not."

Well the social norm I know is that if you speak out truthfully about something and the truth hurts a lot of people, you shouldn't have really said anything and you'll be thought of negatively. Regardless of it being right or wrong, it's "impolite" to point it out, or you're a jerk to point it out. When I was reflecting on why I thought "what a jerk", that was the only thing that came to mind, was that this person was pointing a painful truth out and I believe I've been conditioned to see that as 'wrong', when I personally don't think it is.

EDIT: This also kinda branches out into more problems. Especially when I'm around other people. Like I try to stay silent, but whenever I remain silent I get into trouble, and whenever I speak, I get into trouble. I'm also running into loops that don't make sense. Like I understand calling someone a fatso is mean, and just outright doing it for pleasure so to speak is a jerk thing to do and I never really say things like that for the simple reason that theres no reason to. However, if someone asks for my opinion on their physical appearance, and I don't like it, I've got a problem. I could say nothing, and get them mad becuase they'll assume I don't and just won't say anything. I could also lie and say they look good when they don't and do them a disservice (I don't like to lie. Makes me feel dirty.). In contrast, I could tell them outright that they don't look aesthetically pleasing, and have them get mad there. Then, if in this foray, I throw in a factor where their appearance doesn't match the societal norms of beauty, I have an even stranger loop. Essentially, if 99% of people think this persons looks fall into the 'ugly category', whereas I'm one of those 99% becuase they're personally displeasing to the eye, and they ask for my opinion, should I say nothing and have others ridicule them, should I lie and also open the gates to ridicule later on, or should I tell the truth and possibly give them a chance to fix the problem if possible, while enduring the hate immediately?

"Fatso" is a slur. It's not a word used for explaining that someone is overweight, it's a word for ridiculing people. Why would it be a problem for you to not ridicule someone? You honestly think your only two options are to call someone fatso or say nothing?

As animals, we're conditioned to avoid pain and seek comfort. So successful interactions should be moderated to maximise the first and minimise the latter.

Don't beat yourself up too much about getting this right. NTs aren't born with these skills, we just have better sensitivity to when we're getting it wrong before it goes really wrong - and there's a spectrum of that, too. Some people are just more adept at this naturally, but all of us have to learn.

I'm NT, but kind of one of those 'honest types' - I'm a good liar, but I don't like doing it and I'm not a natural flatterer - this is something I've had to learn how to do better. I grew up with a narcissistic mother who always add a sting to every compliment, so that's what I learned to do. It's not a successful strategy!! I've had to unlearn that.

Also flattery, even if it's what you intend, ALWAYS work better if it's the truth or at least mostly.

If someone asks you explicitly how they look, you need to be able to trust that they can read between the lines if they are NT.

"How do I look?"
"You look amazing."

If you say this, it should be the truth.

"How do I look?"
"You look amazing, oops, there's a thread hanging off. Fixed now."

It's still 99% the truth and you've helped them reach 100%

"How do I look?"
"That colour is really good on you. You look nice."

The NT knows they're not rocking that outfit, but that they look acceptable. They can choose to do what they want with that information.

Everything should be said with "Is it truthful, is it helpful, is it relevant?" Even if your intentions are good you have to modify your language. Someone recently said in this forum "You can't lift someone up, if they feel you're putting them down." That is an incredible piece of wisdom well-put.

Some women will ask, "Do I look fat in this?" or "Does this outfit make me look fat?"
They are asking whether the clothes make them look larger than usual, not whether they themselves are large!
A lot of men (NT included) don't seem to grasp that one.

Elkclan gave a very good explanation.

To elaborate: It may be a kindness to point out something like a loose thread (as Elkclan mentioned) that can be immediately dealt with. If you know someone very well, you can point out stuff like spinach in their teeth etc..

People who are not conventionally attractive, are aware of this and do not need to be told this, even if they ask. If they ask, they are still not looking for honest information. They are hoping to be told otherwise b/c they are insecure about their looks. People often do not hold to the philosophy of never asking a question they don't want an honest answer to b/c societal expectations protect them (often) from this honesty.

You may not mention things like weight or whether they are generally attractive and unless you are very close and know the person is receptive, you should not mention that their make-up was poorly done, (and only then if their make up is conveniently located to fix it)

Silence is ill-advised b/c people know that means your answer is unflattering. People do not ask questions about their appearance for honest feedback. They are fishing for reassurances, so the polite thing to do is find something nice to say. It is generally a mark of insecurity to ask the general public for such reassurances, but people do.

Now, at home, while someone is getting dressed someone might ask which shirt or tie is better, something like that. It is usually safe to pick one of the options, but with some prickly types you have to say that all choices look fine but you prefer (whichever one.) It is not nice to elaborate and say the floral shirt is hideous and should be tossed or anything like that. That is a criticism of their taste in clothes.

This is not an instance where honesty is a virtue, and NT norms should be followed or it will be interpreted as being a jerk.