how to get your kid to do stuff

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Hi. It's been months since I've been here. Things are not going well. My son has always been extremely challenging - aggressive, moody, rude, sensory issues, disobedient. He's been in counseling for several years, has been with a psychiatrist and on meds since he was 5 (he's 13 now) and has had three big autism evaluations and was said to not be on the spectrum all three times (one at age 2, two at age 12.) Change of insurance, his new psychiatrist thinks he is on the spectrum, so I've requested another eval.

His school is not helping much. He's on an IEP but he's not a behavior problem with anybody but family. He doesn't get any work done in academic classes but does well in electives. He's in a great mood when we're doing stuff he wants to do, but when it's time to do chores or schoolwork or shower/brush teeth, he won't, and he gets mad. He's had the police called on him recently by his school when they heard how he threw a spoon at me. The last few days he's pushed me and my mom when we wanted to turn off the TV.

He's off his meds now so that we can hopefully get an accurate diagnosis and appropriate help, and of course his behavior is worse, but mainly in degree - he's been like this since he was a toddler. For all of his life he only does school work, chores or hygiene when it's tied to getting computer time at the end of a successful day. (We tried more frequent rewards, token systems, everything, and they all had issues. Working toward and end of the day goal was best.)

But several times lately he's gone weeks without doing any of the requirements because he loses his desire to get on his computer. Right now he's starting week two of not being allowed any video/electronics due to not doing his stuff. He just flat out says no. I've tried other activities - do your stuff and then we'll go to a movie, etc, but he still won't. He's in a fine mood in general, so I don't think it's like a depression, but when it comes up, he has a meltdown or just says no, he's not going to do it and doesn't care.

The stuff isn't extensive. Here's the list: Daily, feed chickens (his chosen farm animal to care for), feed his two cats, do a couple lessons with me, attend an elective (drama, fencing, parkour, woodshop), read (he loves to read thank goodness). Three times per week he has tutoring. Once per week I'll set aside the whole day and try to get him to take a shower. On a regular day, if I said he can't go to class if he didn't shower, he would say OK. And a couple times per week I try to force the teeth issue also. Both tasks are encouraged by giving computer time if he will do it.

So I think this is pretty much identical to my first post here from a year ago. His counselor and teachers work with me on reinforcement schedules, so it's not just me and a lack of expertise on my part. What do you do if you have a 13 year old who won't do anything? His autism type symptoms are showing more especially now that he's non medicated. He walks thru the house and just picks up whatever he sees and bangs it against the floor or the wall or a cabinet or throws it, he grabs a nerf gun and shoots at a glass lamp (nerf guns are now taken away), picks up a butter knife and jams it into a counter... His counselor says he should be in a residential placement. He's amazingly perfect, sweet, obedient, compassionate, insightful, helpful with other people. At the place he does fencing and parkour they love him and he leads classes there for them and they always remark on what a good person he is. It remains to be seen how much his behavior might change in these other environments once he's had more sessions off his meds.

But what do I do with him? Do I just decide to totally abandon my expectations? I could probably get him to do his small amount of work by only allowing him to eat veggies and not eat any other stuff unless he does something. Is that even halfway acceptable? (Of course I'd have to only have veggies in the house, as there is no stopping him from eating whatever he can get his hands on, even if we say no don't eat that, he'll eat it anyway.) It can't be good for him to just sit around and eat whatever he wants and do no chores and break stuff and make a mess and fart and burp and scream nonstop when he's mad and do no schoolwork and flat out tell us no when we ask for help with something around the house. He's got capabilities - he was identified as gifted, and he has done amazing stuff around here in the rare moments when he's motivated. He's installed landscaping materials, made walkways with rocks, set up targets for knife throwing and archery, put together all the furniture in his room, created his own board games with rules and goals and a board and pieces... But he won't do what we ask him to. Is there something I'm missing that would make it easier for me to just live with it? Is this something parents of kids on the spectrum deal with? Maybe my expectations are too high.

So I guess my question is, even though it seems like he won't work for any reinforcers, should I still keep trying with special food items, or should I just figure it's like he's sick - when somebody is sick, you don't tell them if they will stop throwing up you'll let them play a video game.

I do sometimes get to the point that he can't even watch whatever TV show I might be watching, or play with Legos. Like tomorrow might be a good day for that - he hasn't had a shower in a week, hasn't brushed his teeth in 9 days, refused to do anything on the list today and yesterday (feed chickens, do a school lesson, clean his cat litter box, feed his cats), so tomorrow I'll say look, you have to do those things, or no TV and no Legos (the only two things he has left other than books, basically, and no TV means no TV for anybody in the house because he won't leave the room in which its on.) But maybe he'll then just do something with paper, or roll around on the floor perfectly content, or more likely what he'll do is the usual, following me around screaming at me and throwing things. I do not give in, ever, so this means when I decide we are at this point the screaming lasts all day, sometimes even into the next day, and what usually happens is then it's time for one of his classes, so we go to it and then it's late when we get home so we start over the next day.

Anyway I'm rambling now, but we just finished a huge thanksgiving dinner with dessert, and 20 minutes ago he was crying because his stomach hurt from being so full, and just now he said I have to fix him dinner, and I said no more food, and he lost his mind, got in my face screaming at me, threw a pencil that almost hit me, slammed several doors. What do you do at this point? I feel like I'm just missing some simple piece that hasn't occurred to me.

Thanks for reading.

It sounds like the behaviorist paradigm -- do stuff to earn rewards -- isn't working.

I would suggest taking a look at a completely different approach. Instead of tweaking your rewards system (13 is way too old to be talking about food treats as a motivator, imo) -- saying you must accomplish these tasks in order to have electronics and snacks -- this approach focuses on figuring out WHY he is not doing those tasks, and engaging him in solving the underlying problems.

You can check it out through "parent tour" videos at LivesInTheBalance, or read the books The Explosive Child and Lost at School by Ross W Greene. Your situation sounds serious enough that you should work with someone trained in the method if you decide to give it a try. Use the contact form on the website to ask the author for a therapist in your area.

Hi. Thanks. I guess I posted this twice. I didn't know there are professionals who'll help with the Greene method. We are not doing it officially - it's just very similar to how I already try to work things out with him. But I should definitely get more serious about it. I've been speaking to his docs and it seems he'll be starting a partial hospitalization program soon, but I'll still have plenty of time to need to be better at dealing with him since the program is only from 8 to 2:15 Mon-Fri.

I'm pushing his school for a residential placement. The bottom line is, no matter how inadequate or awful it makes me feel or how unfair I think it is, he is a much better human being when he's around strangers. I know it's not my fault and I have what is probably a healthy level of no-guilt, and it helps that his therapist tells me I'm a super fantastic mom who's doing pretty much everything right, but of course having him be so awful to family when it's so amazing outside of the family can sting a little, or a lot.

He says he is stressed around strangers and puts on a show to avoid getting embarrassed, and even to avoid them hurting him, since he doesn't know them well and worries what they'd do if they saw the true way he is. And if that's true I guess at some point he'll start to manifest the usual behaviors around strangers as they become no longer strangers as well as around us. Or maybe if he's behaving well only due to being very anxious, that'll eventually break down. But to date he's been perfectly behaved and a really special beloved member of all classes he's been a part of. He didn't get much academic work done when in academic classes, but he wasn't a behavior problem and had no apparent emotional issues. He's been with one specific drama company for a year and a half and knows them pretty well and is still amazing for them.

So at home he's just too comfortable. Maybe he shouldn't be in an environment where he feels free to let it all hang out, so to speak. I just wonder if he does 6 months or whatever in a residential facility and is well behaved due to being around non-family, when he comes home, will he be any different? If not I guess he'll just have to go again.

I finally found the link to the Greene's list of certified CPS providers:

I think one of the problems is with the reward/punishment thing. That doesn't really work for everyone, and if someone has to do a chore they don't see the point of just to be allowed to play with their own toys, it probably makes them feel they have to jump through hoops every day for no reason. At 13 perhaps you could convince him that putting effort in school work is in his self-interest.
When I was in primary school I also refused to do the work, even though the teachers knew it was easy for me. Reward/punishment never really worked for me even at 8-10. I only changed after my parents convinced me it was in my own interest, since after primary school I would go secondary school where you could follow the course for "smart" people that is required for college or you could follow the course for the "less smart" people. I decided I wanted to be with the smart people so I put in the effort and finished primary school with good grades, not because of rewards or punishments but because I wanted it myself. Sometimes kids are a bit like mules, hard to force them to do something they don't want.

I think that if he comes home from school he's probably tired and stressed, and it rubs him the wrong way that he has to do chore before he is allowed access to toys. People need entertainment to wind down. My parents never restriced me access to toys or food. I needed them to wind down. They even allowed me to read during dinner when I was really young.

Oh, and feeding a child just veggies is not a good idea. It is extremely unhealthy since you are unlikely to get a full set of nutrients on vegetables alone. A few years ago there was a vegan mother who put her child on a veggie diet and he ended up malnourished and his growth and puberty delayed.

Thank you everybody. I don't know how to convince him to do stuff. We've talked about contributing to the family. He says he rationally understands but that he just doesn't care. He knows he's a big strong guy who can really help us around here, and he wants to stay on the ranch and keep the horses and the animals, but he has not yet internalized that and done anything about it. If he's nearby an animal who's having some sort of issue, he is sweet and helpful. But if he's not nearby and it's not super easy and convenient, he won't do anything. So for example if we leave early and don't feed the chickens until we get back, he'll really really get mad and say he doesn't care if they die, he's not going to feed them. Or if it's something novel, like so-and-so horse is bleeding and I need his help, he likes that and it interests him, but if it's a horse needs food and I'm unable at that moment or something, he won't do it, or even if it's to go check on an old wound or if horses are fighting or anything like that. If it's not super exciting and novel, he won't bother. If we're already in the barn, he'll leave and go inside, or if we're in the house, he won't go out.

Even when he consents to feeding the chickens (his chosen daily chore along with his cats), he won't go do it unless I go with him. If I can't go, often he will simply refuse, or sometimes he'll run out and run back and lie about having fed them - easy to know he's lying because I'll go look and they are still screaming for food and the scoop is still where I left it and their waters are dry. AND he'll admit he lied. But sometimes we've believed him and left for the day then suspected later in the day that he hadn't really done it and he's admitted it, and I've explained that they might die (especially with no water on a hot day) and he might say he's sorry but it doesn't change his behavior.

I've asked if we should sell the ranch and live in a regular house so we have fewer responsibilities and he begs me not to. If I say then please show me your resolve and go pick up the manure in the arena, he'll of course refuse. So he's not really yet at a point that he can see things being in his interest. When we have rational talks he says he understands that he should contribute. But he won't.

And I don't really mean feed him just veggies. I just mean maybe he shouldn't get anything special like pizza or cake if he's refusing to do anything. He always has access to cheese, eggs, milk, veggies, apples. But he has meltdowns over wanting other foods and they seem to be the only motivating factor in his life right now. The school psychologist said I should use eating out as a motivator.

thanks everybody.

Thank you guzzle, very interesting reading about your DD's residential placement.

Thank you zette. He's in the partial program now and we'll have some counseling sessions too. I'll look into following up with a Greene type once he's out.

I know that living on a ranch or farm is different b/c historically kids were always a part of that work load, and it is something expected, but having a kid on the spectrum makes it different, especially when his interests seem to mainly be in computers, right?

My son is a good deal younger, but I never give him anything to do that is urgent, if you know what I mean. I look at it as a life skill thing not a helping with the workload kind of thing. So, I guess my question is how important is the workload issue vs. the life skill issue?

Based on what you describe, your son sounds like he is still in the helper phase, where he will more readily help if he is tagging along or other people are tagging along with him. I know you look at him as being a strong boy who could get a lot done, but mentally it sounds like he is a helper. Maybe if you look at it that way, it will help you come up with some kind of middling expectations.

Maybe, tell him you know it is difficult for him to do things independently, and give him more things to do that he can do with other people and less to do on his own?

My other suggestion (though also probably not what you want) is is there any computer work he could do for you that would help you run your farm? Again, I know that he looks like he is suited for strong person work, and that is the help you want, but maybe if he could do some computer/office work to help it would be more in his interest set and he would be more motivated.

He is operating on a lower developmental level than his size and strength indicate and even if those things would be welcome resources for you, I don't think you make a decisions that are dependent on his assistance.

Disclaimer: While I currently live in a rural area, I am basically a city person at heart so do not have an ingrained/cultural understanding of farm life and only have a theoretical basis for what I say, so it may sound very weird to say to lighten up on the farm expectations. I do know it is usual for farm families, but I don't know how much that type of work suits him and I know that in farm families it is not usual to consider that as it it is part of family expectations.

Second Disclaimer: My son is struggling with self-help skills so my expectations are very low when it comes to chores for the family b/c at this point I would be happy if my son could brush his teeth without me reminding him. Naturally, this is likely to bias my answer as well b/c my expectations in this regard are more in the life-skills category than expecting real help. Your son is clearly capable of much more than that, and I know that, but it is likely there is still bias in my answer.

Thank you. Very good points. The frustrating thing is he will sometimes come out to the barn and demand to build something or change something, and if it's something that I can allow, he'll spend hours on it, lifting and carrying heavy things, struggling, maintaining amazing focus, skipping lunch... Just not ever for something I want done. Argh.

So it seems like the work suits him - he's dug a flooded ditch for hours and installed landscaping materials for hours and likes to do tractor work when we have something in an open area where he won't crash as easily. And he adamantly states he wants to continue to live here and that he knows it requires work from everybody and he knows he could and should do a lot more. He just doesn't want to do what he's told to do, and there aren't novel interesting things happening all that often.

I'm so overwhelmed from the other thread where Tracker suggested the form of autism known as Pathological Demand Avoidance. It fits him so so so so amazingly well, I feel like the main researcher has had my house bugged! The teaching guide talks about how you can't just ask or tell them to do something. It has to come up naturally as if it's a fun thing, a competition, a way of helping, their idea... I've always had success with those methods but now that he's older he's wise to them most of the time. But the helper thing, you are right on with that. Currently he's doing his "energy healings" on horses here and he does them for a couple boarders who love them and appreciate them and it's just totally mind boggling that the horses do immediately better after he does them, and the horses will come to him for them and will stand and wait while he does whatever he "feels" needs to be done.

I can't help but feel like WTF, if he can do that, why can't he take out the damn garbage.

The Pathological Demand Avoidance explains it all though. Totally. It will be hard for me to treat his disobedience and lack of garbage-taking-out or chicken-feeding as not him just being defiant, and his huge screaming throwing things tantrums as a panic attack. But I'm going to try. If he was more disabled across the board it would be so much easier to see these things as symptoms, not that I'm not grateful for his strengths, just that it's so confusing. And if the stuff he liked to do was stuff he was able to do on his own, so that I don't "waste" my time being with him, then it would be easier to just let him be off doing his thing, like a mad scientist. But he needs me with him all the time, unless he's on the computer, so when I'm feeding the animals and stuff like that he's often crying in the house, or following me around yelling at me to hurry up and come sit with him on the couch. Maybe this will get better if we can get his anxiety down.

I have to admit it's been much worse and harder on my mom and I since he's been banned from his computer, because there is no other way to occupy him. I have stuck with it thinking it's the right thing to do and that I'll one day wear him down and he'll (magically) start complying with my demands. But for a couple hours at various times of day I need to be able to work outside. If he won't come with me, won't help me, won't come out and occupy himself somehow, won't occupy himself inside appropriately and instead spends those two hours screaming at my mom or even at me while I'm trying to work to provide him with something to do that he wants to do, then maybe I should just let him on the computer as a way of making MY life better. I guess I'm mainly worried about what the medical and therapy types will say when they hear he's allowed on even though he's not doing his school work or showering. They already think this is all my fault - well the school does, not the therapist.

I also get leery of letting him on because he never gets off. I have to unplug him, and he has been aggressive during those times. But he's aggressive at other times anyway, so what difference does it make. I have parental controls set so it shuts down at 10 PM, but if I let him on earlier in the day, it's a big hassle to log on and set up parental controls for just the next couple of hours. They don't take effect unless you log out and log back on and it takes forever. I need a timer for the computer power cord that is password protected and in a locking box that I can just set like a Christmas tree timer or a lizard cage light timer. (Did you ever work at a place that has the thermostat for the office in a locking box, so employees can't change the temperature? Although maybe he'd just break it.)

I think this is the same question I had when I started here a year and a half ago. LOL. Should I let him get on the computer even though he's refusing to do what I've asked, just to make my life easier?

I understand how you feel Snowyowl - my aspie daughter is 14 and since puberty she doesn't do a heck of alot either and seems incapable of it now. At 8 to 12 years old, she could make her own lunch, run her own bath, do her homework on her own and even do her laundry once a week and fold it and put it away. She also willingly vacuumed on Saturdays. She also could floss, brush and gargle for her teeth every day.

Now, I end up making her her lunch and she packs it with snacks she chooses herself. For daily chores, she does a handful of dishes after supper (I usually do most of them as I cook). For baths, I let her do it every second day and I have to run it for her. For teeth, she brushes her teeth daily, but doesn't usually floss or gargle any more. On Saturdays, she either dusts the living room and tidies her room or she vacuums the living room or cleans the bathroom and tidies her room, depending on the week. I end up helping her with tidying because she easily gets overwhelmed and choosing different chores to do each week makes her happier with the variety.

For laundry, I have to watch her put it in the washer and watch her put it in the dryer and she will stuff it in her drawers the following day.

Sometimes I wonder how incapable she is now considering she used to happily do her daily routines and chores without too much complaint.

I do end up rewarding her with treats if she has to do something like go to the dentist or doctor because she hates to leave the house except for going to school. I tried giving her candies to get her chores done every week, but I guess the novelty wore off and it didn't work any more.

I also will tell her she can take forever to do her chores and then have the rest of the day to enjoy her video games or she can just clean all day. I think it helps because her twin sister and I do chores all at the same time on Saturday mornings, so she does usually get her stuff done eventually. I sometimes have to get her started or help her out or tell her what she needs to do next.

I think that it's fairly normal for children that age to not be responsible when taking care of pets. I know so many people who got a rabbit for their kid and end up taking care of it because the kid won't do it. And no one "wants" to take out the garbage, it's just that adults realise that they need to do it because otherwise it will pile up.
About taking computer time or toys away: if it makes him unhappy, won't that make him even less likely to cooperate?