Parenting my NT child (groan!)

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I am an aspie mom with four children. Only the oldest is NT. She is just like her dad. We divorced four years ago, and she is now 17. Her and I never got along. I have grown to see through her conning and manipulating classic neurotypical behaviors at me. Fortunately, I am typically a step ahead of her. I can read her well and know when she is egging me on, or trying to get information that I haven’t disclosed. Of all my children, she is te only one I cannot have a civil conversation without it riling me up. I have diarrhea before, during and after, all from anxiety. Every time we speak, I ask myself, “will it go smooth this time?” yet I flip out, every time.

I react around her like I do when having to have a conversation with a severe NT in the real world. Like this week, at the car rental. Everything I said, the rep flipped around. I said, “I would like to change the reservation from ten days to one week”. She then tells her manager, “She would like to change the insurance from 7 days to 10 days”. If I wouldn’t have had my NT friend with me, I would probably fall into the old pattern of thinking that I am the problem. Yet it is the NT’s who play us for fools, because they see a glimmer of panic when we attempt to self-advocate.

That is also my child. Of course, I love her unconditionally. However, I worry that I am growing to hate her NT’ness. I have been known to pick her words apart, and then attach it to memories of my ex and when he would treat me the same way. I recognize that conversations with my daughter are completely triggering. However, I want to repair this. I want to be that cool person that my aspie kids think I am, and know me to be. I don’t want her to hate me like my ex did/does. I don’t want this relationship (if it ever was), to become so broken… because you cannot divorce your kids!

I don’t know for sure what I am asking, but I need help. I don’t know how to be the smooth yummy funny mother to her. My very coolness pisses her off. She wants normal conformity, standard NT game-playing manipulation…. and I don’t do that. I am straight up and honest with no filter, fun-loving, sparkle-making, creative artsy fartsy over-the-top flamboyant aspie. I am at a loss here.

I don't see how you are ever going to get along with your daughter if you continue to see everything about her being "neurotypical" in a negative light. No, neurotypical people are not manipulative, game playing, con artists by nature. Some are, sure. That view, though, is very toxic and I think is at the core of the toxic relationship you have with your daughter. It is the same as if a person stated that they cannot get along with their daughter because the child is "a typical female" and then went on to say that "all females are manipulative, gold digging, conniving, etc". Would you expect this person to ever be able to get along with his daughter when they have such a negative view of the child's nature, which the child has no control over? The problem with these types of prejudices, is that your mind will seek to "find" the negative evidence of it, even when it isn't necessarily there. For example, your child makes you a cup of tea and you automatically think:"she is trying to get something out of me by being nice, typical neurotypical", instead of just assuming it is a nice gesture. I don't see how your daughter can behave towards you in a normal, healthy manner when she senses (and she surely does) that you can't stand that she is neurotypical (it really sounds like you do). It does not seem (to me) that you do love her unconditionally. Also, whenever someone says about their child "they are just like their (insert spouse you despise)", it is evidence that you are projecting all of your negative feelings of the spouse onto your child unfairly. Of course she has some characteristics of her father, that is genetic. It does not automatically mean everything she says or does is with the same motives. My advice is for you to fix your issue with attaching such negative feelings towards your daughter. Until you do, she will never trust you. If she does not have trust towards you, she will be "on guard" and think she *has* to manipulate you, because you can't see her for who she really is (which I'm guessing is a much better person than you see). How else would she respond to that? It is good that you wish to heal your relationship with her. I think this healing process will have to start with you, as you are the parent.

I honestly was not sure if this post was real or not when I first read it. Know that there are neurotypicals on WrongPlanet, and, no, that does not mean they are awful people simply because they are neurotypical.

I'm going to start of with questioning your assumptions about people's motivations. The guy at the car rental place, I think it's more likely he was incompetent or distracted than manipulative. What did he have to gain by messing up your order? Frustrating, I know - but probably not a deliberate ploy. If you're applying the same lens to your relationship with your daughter, it's bound to be incredibly destructive.

If your daughter is NT, then she will sense that you are annoyed by her presence (which is what it sounds like). This will be incredibly hurtful to her. She will feel that her own mother doesn't love her. And from your description she may be right - that you don't love the 'real her'.

I'm also going to say that your daughter probably IS being manipulative and that this is normal. Teenagers are often manipulative because they want to do things that aren't allowed! They want to taste the adult world and are held back by parents who often struggle to move on from thinking of them in their high chairs or starting school at 6 or whatever - or even how capable (or not) they were last month or last week. Teenage years are ones where both parent and child have to do big cognitive shifts about the child's capabilities and there are big shifts in the nature of the relationship between parent and child.

Your daughter may also be being manipulative because she's desperate for your love and support. Your coolness feels like rejection. Your no-filter feels like criticism and accusation - when what she needs is someone to support her as she makes those steps into the adult world. She can FEEL your stress at being around her. People, at least NT people and I think probably Aspies, too - feel rejection in the same part of the brain that we feel physical pain. She feels rejected by her own mother and from your description, I think she's probably right. I don't know what's in your heart, but from your words it really doesn't sound like you love her unconditionally.

I urge you to remember that even if she IS being manipulative, that isn't WHO she is. It's a phase and a reaction.

You have an amazing opportunity for the little time that she remains at home to pull this relationship back. It may not always go smoothly. But if you do love her, you must tell her so. You cannot change who you are, but you can acknowledge the impact of your behaviour (the coolness, the criticism) on her and you can work to change that. It may not be too late to roll back some of the damage of feeling unloved - but some of the behaviours that you'll see from her as she goes through life will look like adult children of alcoholics or daughters of narcissistic mothers.

What I'm hearing from your original post is that you want her to perceive you differently and see you as cool. That you want the relationship to be smoother for your benefit. You need to get yourself in a different place if you want to fix this and you need to want to fix it for HER benefit. Plus NT teens do NOT see their parents as cool. This is part of the normal separation and peer socialisation process. It doesn't matter how cool your other kids think you are or your friends think you are or that indeed you may be. She ain't gonna see you as cool. Just as my son (NT) is not going to think of me as cool - and I think I kinda am. The best you can hope for is for her to look back in 10 years or 15 and think, hey my mom was kinda cool.

My mother is a narcissist. And while it's not the same condition as autism and comes from a different place, the effect can be really similar. Your daughter will probably search for love and confirmation in unhealthy places. She will feel unworthy. And she will probably pick a partner (like I did) who cannot emotionally support her in the way that an NT needs. I'm sure you don't want that.

You have an opportunity that my mother didn't have. She doesn't see me as a real person and she can't. But you can see your daughter as a real person - you just struggle communicating it and may sometimes have trouble understanding her actions and motivations because of TOM or rigid thinking. For your daughter's sake - struggle harder.

I have been trying to find a sensitive way to respond to this since you posted it. I really do want to give you feedback, and I want you to know I am trying to help, but I cannot find a way to do it without risking offending you. I will try, though, because I do think you need help. And I know you are asking for it and I think your request is genuine.

Imagine if an NT parent came on this forum and said similar things about their ASD child. People would be in an uproar. You know, there is an expectation that NT parents need to figure it out when parenting their ASD child. They--the parent--need to make the accommodations. They--the parent--need to adjust to create the best environment for their ASD kid. I believe this expectation is reasonable, and that it is right. However, I think it is true that it is the responsibility of ALL parents to make accommodations for their kids. I think it is the responsibility of ALL parents to adjust to create the best environment for their kids. It is our job. It doesn't matter that you have ASD and your kid is NT. It is your job to meet her needs, not her job to meet yours. I know this sounds harsh and I don't mean it to, but I think it is a very important thing for you to explore. Are there ways that you can adjust your responses to meet her needs? Even though it doesn't come naturally to you? Even though my daughter is only 9, we have had some pretty amazing conversations in which she was able to tell me what she needs from me. Some of it goes against my "natural" way of being. But because I respect her, I have worked hard to make the changes. If at 9 years old (and she's the one with ASD) she can see that I am trying to meet her needs, and she appreciates the effort, I would think the same could eventually be true for your daughter.

I can tell you, as an NT 17 year old girl, your underlying negative view of her is undoubtedly very obvious to her. I cannot imagine the pain she must feel. Being a teen is very hard, and in some regards I think it is harder for NT teens because they are often more sensitive to the rejections of their peers. Fitting in matters, sometimes more than anything else. If you then feel that you don't "fit in" with your family (you indicated you and the other siblings are all on the spectrum), which should be your safe haven, and if you feel that your mother does not love and accept you for who you are...well, I would find it unusual to hear that she wouldn't be acting out in some way.

I think it might help you to explore what you mean when you say you love her "unconditionally." Do you mean you feel obligated to love her, no matter what, because you gave birth to her? Or do you mean that you love her no matter what? Because if it means you love her no matter what, then you must also love her NT-ness, because that is who she is. She can no more help the fact that she is NT than you can help the fact that you are not. I encourage you to mentally challenge the blanket statements that you make (in your head) about NTs. It is not serving your purpose, and I have found the first thing I need to do is to "break" the tape recorder in my head that tells me things that are not aligned with my goals. If instead of seeing her "manipulations" as a result of her horrible NT-ness, what if you saw them as attempts by her to get her needs met, and that they are ineffective because she doesn't know how to effectively get her needs met, and it's your job to help her learn how to get them met in a healthy way that is respectful to herself and those around her?

I mean to say this gently, because I believe you want to do right by your daughter: You are the parent, she is the child. I think the best thing you can do in this situation is to figure out how you can change to meet her needs. That will help establish a bridge between you and her. Once that bridge is established, the two of you can work toward building a more respectful relationship. She is old enough to learn how to respect you. But that will never happen until you respect her. And because you are the adult and because you are the parent, it is up to you to initially work to bridge the gap.

How to do that? I don't know. I don't know you and I don't know your daughter. However, one approach you could try is to set aside time for the two of you and just be honest: I feel like I am failing you. Please tell me one thing you would like me to do to help you feel respected and loved. Then work very hard to do that one thing. Do not ask for anything from her. Prove yourself first. She will eventually come to see that you mean it, and then you can work on establishing a more reciprocal relationship.

Best of luck to you.

Is it possible that she is the one trying to teach you, giving lessons to you? NT people tend to do that, quite a lot. They try very hard at teaching you to learn their "art of the trade." They are disgusted at your inability to play along.

To me, I just sigh at their attempts: they are short-sighted. I view at all the manipulation things as harmful to the larger community. And they want to teach me that?

Being autistic, you get the "selflessness" for free. That means that I tend to view everyone as an equal. No more, no less, but equal. And that includes the NT folks. NT folks are quirky, weird from my perspective. But I care as much about them as I do with folks on the spectrum. Matter of fact, I worry more about them than about children with autism. And I am not joking. They don't know what's coming. I see massive job-loss rate in another 15 to 20 years. They are not aware of the wave of talented autistic children growing up that will take away their jobs. The world is changing and most NT families are still sleeping. Robotic era is already here. And I see people sleeping. In my line of work I sometimes see top managers at young age. One such executive is barely 19 years old. And people are sleeping. I am not the only one worried about this. See Bill Gate's opinion as well:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2015/01/28/bill-gates-on-dangers-of-artificial-intelligence-dont-understand-why-some-people-are-not-concerned/

To me, we belong to the one of the last generations of human beings. So we might as well be nice to each other. That's my point of view. You will get the autistic generation after ours. Some say that next generation will live hundreds of years. And after that, humans become an unnecessary burden. All might as well, as I think humans will hate it in the next glacial period.

There is no point for you to change to accommodate to your daughter. That has been tried for thousands of years and it has never brought any positive outcome. Instead, write down your opinion, in paper or electronically, private or public, and let your daughter understand your perspective.

The way I was raised is so different from the way I am raising my own children. Even my own parents have learned to see things my way. They (and anybody in this world) can realize that I, with my quirky ways, have raised two extremely happy and smart children. Even my own parents have learned that there IS a different way of achieving success. There IS a different way of being successful in life and be happy. My parents have learned that. Hopefully your daughter will be able to do that, too.

Perhaps your daughter can't see it today. But one can only hope that one day she will learn to see it. As I said, we are probably one of the last generations of humans. So we might as well be a little bit nicer to each other.

That's my way of thinking. Which, of course, is very different from the car rental guy that tried to make a few extra bucks from you. But, just take it easy and laugh it off. No big deal. In the big scheme of things, some ups and downs are just there, to enrich our lives, so that you can have some stories to tell your grandchildren, even if they are just robots. Am I exaggerating? Sure I am about the timeline, but not about the essence of my message.

regards,

I think you should stop blaming "NT-ness" for you and your daughter's communication problems or personality clashes.
That is like other people blaming autism for their problems with their children or parents or spouses.
It is ackshuly interpersonal problems specific to you and your daughter.

I think your problems with your daughter are teenage problems, not NT problems.
Yes, teenagers of all sorts are often obnoxious. Are ASD teens less so? I don't know. I suspect some of them are, and some are not. Some of them are probably MORE obnoxious.
Anyway, stop comparing her to her father. One NT does not equal another any more than one person with ASD equals another.

I'm just checking in to say that I ready everything. Some of you made me cry with self-awareness and truth. Others (Jason) made me laugh. In either case, please keep it coming. I am processing it all right now. I know what the outcome should be, I just don't know how to initiate it. like Jason said, I don't want to change myself for her needs, especially since I don't think they are correct or proper values. On the other hand, like InThisTogether says, I do need to accommodate my daughter and her needs. I just don't know what the fine line is between accommodating her, and changing myself. What if the only accommodation acceptable here is to change myself?

Thinking of this as a choice between "change myself to accommodate her" and "make her change to accommodate me" seems unhelpful.

She is different than you. You have an obligation to her because you are her mother. You owe it to her to take her unique qualities into account when you deal with her.

Likewise, you are different than other people. It makes sense for you to be aware of those differences when you are dealing with others.

The potentially useful and effective thing is to think about outcomes. What can you do that will be helpful to her? What can you ask her to do that will be helpful to you. You can develop more functional ways of communicating over time.

It may be very helpful to get an outside perspective on your ways of relating to each other and there are therapists who specialize in this kind of thing. It may also help to focus on positive aspects of the relationship to offset the stress created by the parts that don't work and have been trouble historically.

Think of how an NT parent needs to change to accommodate their special needs child. Look at your NT child as having a special needs child and accommodate her. What are things a parent need to change for their ASD child, think of things you would have to change for your NT child.

Another post about "change" and whether it's appropriate to "change yourself".
What does that even mean? It's impossible to change the essence of who you are, unless perhaps through hypnosis or some kind of brainwashing. And I don't think anyone's talking about doing that.
Modifying your behavior in certain situations and around certain people does not equal changing yourself.

When I go out, I don't wear my pajamas. I wear daytime clothes because other people expect and like it. That doesn't mean I've magically turned into another person.

I don't understand how you would fundamentally change yourself by accommodating someone different from you.
I accommodate others often, but I didn't change myself doing it.

Changing my natural responses to accommodate the needs of my daughter have not changed who I am. I am still fully me. I am just aware that in some instances, "me" may not respond to my daughter in a way that is most helpful to her. So, in those cases, I tone "me" down a bit. But I am still me. Changing your natural responses does not change who you are.

For example, my natural response when I learn of a social issue with my daughter is to sit her down, go over the situation, do some perspective taking, and plan a different response to try the next time she is in the situation with the hopes of having a better outcome. This seems perfectly reasonable to me. In fact, it seems like the only helpful response.

She, however, does not see it that way. She hates it. It makes her feel invalidated and that I always side with the other kids. It makes her feel like I see her as always doing everything wrong.

Definitely not my intent.

So, we talked about it. She told me what she wants me to do is to feel sorry for her because she is hurting. At first this seemed preposterous to me because I do not want to validate a victim mentality in my kids. I want them to rise above. But all she wanted me to do was to hug her, tell her that I was sorry that her feelings were hurt, and sometimes to just let her cry.

So, I agreed to do it.

And you know what? At 8 years old, she told me that if I could just "comfort" her until she felt comforted, she would listen to what I was trying to tell her to try to learn better ways of dealing with social issues.

Win-win for both of us.

My natural inclination is still to start breaking the circumstance down when she tells it to me, but I bite my tongue and do whatever I need to do to just be there with her. Only when she starts to "detach" from me do I ask if we can talk about it. Sometimes it takes hours to get there. Sometimes only minutes. But we have developed a rhythm in which her needs get met, and my needs get met.

I am still me.

But I have accommodated her needs.

Does that help?

Oh, God, do I feel ya. I've got four myself, Number One is a teenage daughter (13) who I describe as NT because she has no Dx nor do I see a reason to seek one (not struggling in any area of life). Some traits have led me to think she might be very faintly BAP (doesn't give a damn what anyone thinks of her, stubborn as a mule, light and sound sensitive, logical). However I want to "classify" her, oh Lord, do we go around some times. Like two cats in a bag.

Teenage girls, regardless of what letters they come with or don't, are just bound to antagonize and defy their mothers. It's not an NT thing. It's not an NT/AS thing. It's not an "out to get you personally" thing. It's a teenage girl thing.

Teenagers, by definition, want to get away with stuff they shouldn't do and aren't mature enough to handle. Teenagers, by definition, are too big for their britches one minute and not mature enough to fill up their big-girl panties the next. They're just naturally bent to be defiant, manipulative, and not very nice-- especially if you happen to be their same-gender parent. They're figuring out who they are; no matter who you are, part of who they (think they) want to be is NOT-YOU.

The FIRST thing you need to do is take a deep breath. Oooommmmmm, Motherf***er. You CAN do this; you ARE a good mother. You just need to do some tweaking. Oooommmmmm, Motherf***er. Oooommmmmm. I'm pretty sure that's 9/10 of how my father kept from killing me when he was a single parent and I was a teenage girl (and he wasn't my mother, and we were both on the spectrum). That, and double insulation in my bedroom walls and a solid-core insulated door on my bedroom.

The SECOND thing you need to do is make a significant heart-change in what you see when you look at your kid. She's not evil (any more than any 17-year-old girl is evil where her mother is concerned). She's not unusually manipulative, or particularly disrespectful, or really much of anything other than a typical teenage girl (God knows there are plenty of frustrated stand-up comedy routines about THOSE) in a difficult situation. She's not particularly out to get you. AND SHE IS NOT HER FATHER.

That's important. I don't know what went down with him, but obviously it went bad. You're allowed to think HE is the Antichrist (you're just not allowed to say it in front of your kids, because he's still their Daddy). She may have some things in common with him. She may have a lot of things in common with him. But SHE IS NOT HIM, AND IT DOES NOT NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE THE SAME.

Bang that through your head. Do it well, do it thoroughly, do it lovingly... but do it quick. I have to struggle to remember that my husband (who I love) is not his father (who I learned to seriously, poisonously, and deservedly hate). Particularly when he sounds just like him (which he does every time the kids get loud, or do something stupid, or he wants to win an argument with me and I'm not giving in). Having him know that I look at him and see his father isn't going to help him learn or change anything. All it's going to do is hurt him and scare him-- and nobody learns anything good when they're hurt and scared.

Make a list of 100 things you LIKE about the kid. They can be anything-- her sense of humor, the grades she makes in school, the color of her eyes, the way her hair hangs, her choice of socks, one singular choice of friend, something she did (or didn't do). ANYTHING AT ALL, as long as it is specific and real.

Remember it. Make a point to praise those things (and anything else you can find to give specific, realistic praise to) every single day.

Cut yourself off some forgiveness-- you're in a really stressful situation (raising a teenager and three other kids, post-divorce). Cut her off an equal slice-- she's in a really stressful situation (being a teenager and the oldest of four, post-divorce).

Try to be patient with the things you CAN be patient with. Filthy room?? Snark?? Clothes you merely don't like?? Black lipstick, piercings in repulsive places, and music that sounds like a cat and a coyote are killing each other?? Other things on that level?? She's seventeen-- you don't have to live with her for too much longer. Pick your battles. Save it for the things that really matter-- the things that endanger life, limb, or brain function and are likely to close doors she won't be able to unlock later (drugs, promiscuous unprotected sex, DUI or riding in cars with drunks). Save it for the big transgressions-- room that's going to draw vermin, sneaking out, wanting to go to a concert that costs $300 and is 500 miles away with "friends" that are beyond-questionable-you-have-solid-proof-they're-bad-news, sexually explicit material on the Internet, she-just-downloaded-$250-worth-of-comic-books-and-now-we-can't-pay-XXX-bill.

Hungry kids. Low battery. Back later.

Yes, I've had to deal with some of those (the last two -- and she's ONLY THIRTEEN!! !).

The SECOND thing you need to do is make

I would personally find it difficult to be angry about this. I'd be too excited about the fact that my daughter loved comic books.

Yeah, what constitutes big transgressions is going to vary by household.

What really made me mad wasn't the bill; it was that she broke a rule (NO unauthorized downloads, no downloads PERIOD without parental preview, because there is some dangerous stuff out there) that had been repeatedly stated since she was, like, six and that I KNEW she understood.

I wasn't too ticked about $250 worth of Naruto manga (except of course that you can get them free and to think legal...). I was FURIOUS about "If you flout the big, simple rules, then how am I supposed to trust you?"

The rest of what I want to say needs thinking about.

I don't think kids (even 17-year-old girls) need the "shiny yummy mummy." MY kid tends to recoil from that treatment, but every one is different. They don't need "cool mom," however much they act like they THINK they want it. They DO need both boundaries and a mom who they know loves (and likes) them for who they are. And I think they have a hard time distinguishing between "loving me" and "loving all my irritating, manipulative, horrid teenage behaviors."