Parents on the spectrum

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This new sticky was devised after some discussion regarding a forum for parents with an ASD to discuss issues unique to them. For reference please see:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt148775.html
and
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt66773.html

Very well, I will be the first person posting here. (yay first!)
I have a problem regarding the differences in my partner's views on education and mine. My 9 y old son is AS, not sure about my 2 y old daughter yet, and i have always used clear rules and a clear chart of consequences with him. I used to be a single mum, for 5 years i raised him alone, and when my now partner entered our lives everything became chaotic. He is presumably NT, and seems to think that my son is using my rules at his advantage. For instance, if he breaks a rule such as screaming on me, he gets one day of punishment (no computer). My partner thinks my son is ok with just one day, and that's why he sometimes still screams on me. So, his answer to that is to randomly change the rules. He will randomly give 7 days of punishment at a time, or punish him differently (no TV, DS or computer for 5 days!) which makes no sense. And i'm left dealing with the obviously unavoidable meltdown, there is more screaming and even insults flying (my son calling his step father "insane" and telling him " he cannot even think so why is he allowed to speak in this house" , which i personally find justified...) and of course, he gets punished for his meltdown.
The problem here is that i cannot agree with my partner on this. I also cannot overtly back my son up. I will do it privately, telling my partner that i really think he's making things worse by being illogical, but i get told that i'm "too soft" and that the problems come from the education i've given my son. No amount of telling him to read up on autism will convince him that he should.
But i'm afraid my son will start thinking that i just take his step father's side even when he's wrong, which means i love him more. Not true, of course, i'm only trying to let him understand how things work at his own pace, but gosh, he is 27, shouldn't he be acting like an adult?
What is your take on this, how do i deal with this without hurting anyone? And if i have to hurt someone, shouldn't it be the adult?

Can I answer? No, seriously, I'm asking.

I think you're partner is all wet, myself, and I'd say that if this was an all AS family or an all NT family or any combination. That flies in the face of EVERY parenting book out there. Kids need predictability, even NT ones. So the question is really going to become, in my opinion, how to get him to understand that.

And I'll only write more if you want me to

I know what you're saying is true. My partner IS "wet'" (i get what it's supposed to mean, curiously enough, but i still see him dripping)
The main question being, if you've faced an NT partner before, how do you tell them that they're wrong witout having them exploding in your face? You can decide yourself if you have an answer to that

i'd like to discuss some of above...
not sure my ideas are fully formed, right or relevant, but just things i want to figure out for myself too
so feel free to disagree/ tell me to butt out etc.

- in my gut, sort of think you get to have the final decision on disciplining your child, after taking into account your new partner's feelings, needs, advice etc
(not sure this is an argument you should use with your partner)

- ditto DW_a_mom, rules and consequences are supposed to be clear and consistant
if i've lost control of a situation and start making punishments up on the spot, it often leads to a lose-lose situation
(eg saying that they can't do something, which i really want them to do)

- I usually walk away from my son, if he shouts at me, eg over homework (he's not AS)
Mostly because whatever I say will make him crosser.
And him actually doing the homework is more important (and inevitable) than getting sidetracked into a fight about whether he is rude or not.

What sort of things does your son scream at you about?

I guess you have to sit down and fix your parenting disagreements, because it is only going to add more stress to daily life.
Maybe your partner is just floundering. Becoming a parent forces you to develop all sorts of skills that you had managed to get through life without, including conflict resolution.

In asking if she could answer, I think DW was referring to your earlier suggestion that only parents with AS post on this thread. Don't know if that is still your position but since DW chimed in I hope its OK if I do too.

To try to start a conversation about it without your partner exploding, perhaps you could ask him to sit down and discuss some ground rules with you. Maybe you could even let him start with a suggestion a ground rule for something that troubles him so he feels heard then move on to your own ground rules for how he needs stick to the discipline regs that you have established. Setting a time to have this discussion when everyone is calm might get some result (of course, I don't know your partner).
Good Luck!

I know what she meant. And what i meant was, if you feel you have faced a similar issue and have had some success in the past in regards to getting through to an NT , at least enough to have him accept your point of view, then I would appreciate your help, NT or AS. I just have no idea how to bring this up anymore, nothing I say seems to influence his opinion that my son is just a spoilt brat.
Should I take my son aside and explain to him that his step father can be a little thick? I know i shouldn't. But how can my son respect him if he doesn't act like an adult? He just can't, and I can totally understand that.
I will have to explain to my partner that as long as he cannot show some logic, he can't make any rule. Especially not without discussing them with me first.
Ok, I'll get the divorce papers ready now, wish me luck!
edit: by the way, for those who might be wondering in what way this is related to being on the spectrum, this is what my thread comes down to if i were to express the core of what i feel: I can't seem to be able to defend my own son, not even from my own partner. Have no clue as to how to stop him from putting his world upside down. I am not assertive enough I guess...

I have no issues telling a child that a parent isn't perfect. My husband has anger management issues and my kids are well aware of it; it's not like they wouldn't be if we hid it. The understanding is that because he is an adult, it isn't our job to censor it, but it IS his job to take responsibility for it, mitigate as possible, and so on. Respecting someone does not require that you believe they are perfect

I think I would tell your son that you and your husband have different ideas because you grew up in different households, and this is something you and your husband are still working out. You can have your husband hold off discliplining until he's seen the patterns better, or you can tell your son that even if it sometimes seems crazy, he is expected to follow the husband's orders, requests and consequences. Perhaps you can create a formal grievance process, where each family member is allowed to (after the fact) file a complaint and recommendation, which will then be reviewed by the parents or family separately, at some designated future time. Kind of like taking your case to court

Getting the husband to see it differently will be more tricky. I get it easy in my marriage because my husband and I weren't that far off in the first place, so our negotiations are pretty smooth. I'm thinking, in your case, that a seminar might work, ie find a nice parenting seminar and encourage him to attend with you. In our area, schools are offering these ALL the time, especially preschools. That way it isn't him v. you, it's him v. expert I went to some really great ones when my son was little. OK, they all need modifying for the AS, but at least you might be able to get him to see that he's pretty solitary with that random thing. And ... it might get wheels churning in his head.

Try not to be afraid to challenge your husband, or let him know how big this is to you. If he's anything like me, he'll get more frustrated finding out you kept something you were feeling from him, than finding out what it was. Still trying to figure out how to get my AS husband to believe that. I truly would rather just KNOW. But, I'm not a guy, so maybe that changes things.

And ... I've got to get back to work. Diverted here more than I meant to for today already. Does any of that help at all? Or even make sense?

Thank you for this thread!

I've probably posted elsewhere that I am Aspie and married to an Aspie with 2 kids on the spectrum, and 2 with language delays. (speaking and processing)

We muddle through okay most of the time, mostly because we try to be as honest as we can with each other. Other times--mostly when it involves people outside of us six-- it is really really hard to relate. My husband and I want to set a good example by at least making attempts at being engaged in the world, but as the years go by, we are feeling like being hermits more and more.

Logically we know that we have to help the kids learn to cope in "the real world" but we also know through our own painful experience that it can be hard to want to keep trying.

On our list of less existential problems is our lack of skill at keeping things orderly and predictable. We each have our own rituals, but there is no one in the house who is able to see the bigger picture of how we all function together. For example, things like grocery shopping, cleaning, organizing, laundry are haphazzard affairs at best. I haven't a clue as to when the kids last had baths or combed their hair. (within the last week, I hope) On good days it's just funny, on others I wonder if we'll ever function like there are adults living in the house.

People try to be kind by saying that it would be hard for anyone to manage "so many" kids, but it's so much more complicated than that.

ok, im not asd, just a little quirky, but ive gone through this as well.

i really dont see that this is an issue of your partner being NT, but more along the lines of being inexperienced and uneducated about parenting skills, and probably somewhat unable to control himself at the same time. i have seen the same exact behavior from my SO, and he just got his Autistic Disorder diagnosis two weeks ago. my oldest son, school dx asd most likely aspie, is not biologically his, and they butt heads really badly. they cannot have a discussion involving discipline at all. every time it would break down into them literally screaming at each other, tears from my son, curses from my SO, one would end up pissed for hours and the other end up grounded for weeks. every freakin' time.

(ediself, i just read your post to my SO, and he chuckled and said "oh no, that doesnt sound familiar at all.")

in our house, it comes down to two people who cant control themselves. my SO gets overwhelmed and gets stuck on a "i'm right, you're wrong" track and cant back down. my son gets emotional, feels backed into a corner, and continues fighting even tho he knows hes in the wrong. my SO knows N reacts this way, but he is unable to control his own emotions by that time, and so things continue to escalate. my SO will start throwing out huge punishments that cant possibly be enforced without severe agony on the parent side.

last week my SO and i sat down and talked about this. intellectually he knows his reactions are not positive and need to change, he understands his actions and words work to make N more upset and to escalate the argument further. hes just having trouble recognizing that in the moment. we then sat down with N and talked it over. N also knows his reactions need to change, but he is having the same problem. the plan for now is for either of them, when getting overwhelmed, to call a time out (verbally and with hand signals). both have agreed to this, both have sworn they will respect the others right to back out of the discussion until they can resume calmly.

so far, its a work in progress =) neither have used the time out, but i sure have. while the idea was to get them to learn to self regulate, for now the time out is helping ME. previously i felt helpless, i couldnt step into the middle and undermine my SO's authority, but i couldnt stand there and watch him scream at my son while my son cries. now i can use the time out, they both respect the call, and it doesnt put me on one side or the other. i told my SO tonight they need to start making the time out call themselves, i think they will eventually get to that point, but for now i am stepping in when things get out of hand until they can figure it out themselves.

btw, N is very oppositional and for the first 11 years, my SO blamed that on me, said it was my parenting causing it. a few years ago he finally realized it wasnt me. i dont recall that there was anything that caused that change in his thinking, maybe just the passage of time.

as for getting your spouse to recognize his failings in this area, it may be a simple matter of declaring that if he isnt willing to research the issues and possible solutions, then he will have to concede to what you have decided is the proper way to go about it. educate yourself or let those who have educated themselves plot the course. maybe that will get him to either read up on autism or stick to your discipline plan.

honestly, i wish i had more to suggest. the truth is that N is 14, and my SO has lived with us since N was 2, and we are still struggling with this stuff. my SO has come close to getting knocked upside the head with a frying pan on more than one occasion. its a miracle we've made it this long without me landing in jail =)

thank you DW, yes it's nice to know that someone somewhere has taken the side of the child despite all the books ever written always telling you to buckle it and only talk when the child is away.It's just that if I did that, my partner would resent me ,he is very capable of telling me "then deal with your damn stupid kid yourself if I'm not allowed to do anything, but don't come for help if you need it!" (no, I don't plan on leaving him just yet though )

Now THIS makes me feel better!
Jokes aside, your idea seems like a good one. I've tried telling him reasonably that he can't make decisions about something he knows nothing about, but somehow that hurt his feelings, go figure. I've tried screaming at him to just "be normal" but somehow, he didn't get what it meant. (I'm aware of the irony here, apologies to anyone who feels offended by the word "normal")
It does seem non confrontational enough to tell someone that they're not really capable of dealing with or even talking about something before they have learnt the basis of it right? But he answers that if that was the case, people wouldn't talk about anything, from politics to science, since noone really knows everything about anything. He gets all worked up and illogical lol...
Maybe it's just that he doesn't see my son as a child. He is 9, but imo he's acting like a 6 y old sometimes. Trouble is, my husband has known him since he was 4, and has never seen him as being as small and innocent as he really is. He invents meanings and intentions for him. So, yes, it probably just comes down to the problem of having another male so close to his wife, as backwards and stupidly animal as it seems. He behaves so differently with our 2 year old daughter that i just want to ...i don't know. He creates divisions in the household and makes me care more about my son than my daughter, by favouring her . It's like, she already has a loving parent, i'll just be my son's loving parent, why would SHE get 2 loving parents?? I would never act on this obviously, i don't show anything. But I feel it sometimes. I need a real conversation with him, whether he likes it or not. We need to be together, not against the children, but doing our best for each of them. Can it be so hard to understand?
I'll just write the rules of the house down for him, put them on every frigging wall, and if he breaks them by being unfair to the kid, he gets punished too. There. If he's a child, he will be treated as a child. Competing with a 9 y old for attention, wtf. (I probably won't do that but you know...)

I agree with what you said, rules and consequences should be consistent, but i'm already on that side of the argument I should get the final say in the discipline question: well, I still feel this way, but I have been with my partner for almost 5 years now, and we have a daughter, he is involved as naturally as possible in her education, and i think telling him to not get involved in MY SON's education would further separate our families: me and my son, him and his daughter. He needs to be involved without messing everything up.
About the screaming, it's not a real issue for me. He will scream during meltdowns, nonsensical possessed screaming or "i hate you ! !! !! !!" , whatever, I don't really pay attention lol. I know he's upset, and if I just wait it out he starts being able to tell me why again
But like I said, he gets punished for this, because it's not done in society. But one day of punishment is wayyyy enough for something he'll take years to start controlling......

I think I may know what some aspie kids are doing wrong with some of their parents. I found out after an NT parent was talking to me about her aspie child and her NT child. The NT child had ODD and did not like authority figures one single bit. They would both challenge her on things and the aspie child would challenge the mom more specifically if the mom was wrong or inaccurate on something.

She was complaining that they had no respect for her authority. I probed and asked a few questions. What I found out was revealing and suprising to me. In some households a family is hierarchical and is what some parents want it to be. In this household, even if a child perceives what a parent says as illogical they are suppose to nod their head and go with it. They are not supposed to correct the parent on their logic at all. If it turns out the parent is wrong the parent will eventually figure it out themselves. The same thing occurs if a parent tells a child to do something even if it seems illogical. The child is still supposed to do it. They are not to question it no matter how illogical it is. Again, the parent will figure it out themselves.

In some households, some household members are of higher ranking than others. The lower ranking members of the household are supposed to respect and give deference and authority to the higher ranking members of the household. A child in a household is of lower ranking than a mother and father. This is the same thing when a child goes to school. A child has to defer to the higher ranking authority members of the school like a teacher, principle, or any other administrator no matter what logic they use. I did not know this and was never told any of this. This may be where ASD kids and other behavior disordered kids are running into problems. The children may not realize that this authority deference rule exists but it is unsaid.

Ok, then I still fail at this. I don't see how my husband could start getting authority and making rules if he does everything wrong, it just doesn't make sense to me. I know there are always different ways too see things and he may be convinced that what he does is "also right" ,but his mentality is a bit the one you described: "even if i were to act like a fool, he owes me respect" . Ok....but that won't happen, and there's no way i can agree with that myself so, we're stuck, since what i end up thinking is "why can't we all just get along, stop arguing and talk!! !!" He won't talk to children. He may explain what he is doing, but after 2 sentences we're back to "do as you're told and show some respect". I can't even process the thought mechanics involved in this. Except for " yeah, silence, i want peace, just obey, don't force me to WORK at being a parent "

We're actually something in the middle, and I guess it evolved because of how it seemed we needed to balance the needs of our unique family. I can't imagine being blindly authoritarian, but I also know that one can go endless rounds with a child who doesn't want to do as asked, and it can get out of hand fast.

Here's the thing. There are times that for safety reasons you really need the child to just DO WHAT YOU SAY and not question EVERYTHING. Kids need to understand that. The default position, therefore, is do what the parent says.

But, obviously, kids have their own needs and their own agendas, and often they have good reason to challenge what the parent is telling them. Unless it really is an immediate safety issue, I always let my kids make their case. If they make a good one, we change the request. If I've really listened, understood their position, and continue to disagree with it, I will tell them: "I understand your position but I have not changed my mind and I expect you to comply." I've usually allowed one or two "buts" after that statement but I will then cut the conversation off and tell them, "comply or face a consequence." It can get soooo out of hand with my AS son, because it used to be that he just would not believe that I was never going to see it the same way he did, and he would challenge me literally for an hour or more straight. That simply served no purpose because I HAD given serious consideration to his position, and found it too flawed to go with; truth is, more often than not, we parents DO know what we doing. Default position in a family is that the parent's decision stands, and kids need to accept that.

ediself.. i agree with you.. 6 days of punishment is far too long for a 9 year old child. Is your husband aware that also many Aspies have no good concept of time, so telling a Aspie child that he will be punished for 6 days, I personally think is a stupid thing to do.

Any child.. Aspie or normal.. needs clear cut rules. Constantly having these changed will unsettle the child and also bring lack of trust toward the authority figure doing the breaching. Does your partner realise he is making the one he wants to respect and listen to him, not trust him?

If he wants the child to be respecting him, he should also start respecting the child. Reading up on Asperger's which you said he wont do, would be doing something towards respecting the child (even if the child isnt aware of him trying to get a better understanding). Respect works both ways, otherwise its bullying and you just cant make another truely respect you by that (all its doing is ego ruling by fear otherwise).

Im so glad you can see that your partner does need to change his attitude. If he doesnt.. things in the house probably will get worst as Aspies dont respond well to unfairness.

Maybe you can suggest some parenting classes for you and partner to go to which deal with kids of your sons age, (not necessarily for aspies but general parenting). I think a parenting class would help your partner to see how much he's going over the top with his punishment and really not helping things by inconsistancy. He's got to start looking at himself and take some responsibility of your son further acting out due to is own bad parenting.