AS/NT sibling rivalry

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My two youngest sons were with me today:

Daniel, aged 5, is very probably aspie. I haven't gotten him diagnosed yet. For the majority of the time, Daniel is the easiest, nicest, best behaved child you could ask for. His special interests are: Trains (especially Thomas the tank engine), cars/trucks, and gardening/plants. He can sit for hours playing quietly lining up his trains tracks or cars. He never really gets into anything or causes any kind of trouble except that when he is playing, he wants to be left absolutely alone. If someone bothers him, he will either throw a tantrum (if they're bigger) or hit them (if they're smaller or near his size) and then turn and play just as happily as if they weren't a screaming 2 year old just behind him.

Noah is almost 3, and is a very sociable outgoing sort, so I assume he is NT. This kid is a terror!! He is active and going all the time, and just when you want to scream with frustration, he flashes a winning smile or comes up and kisses you on the cheek. He is just as loud and demanding and extraverted as his brother is not...

So, Daniel had worked for a long time on some roads that he made out of paper and was being very careful to keep them all together and ordered- IOW, safe. I cleaned the room so he could lay them out on the floor, and he started to play. I was surprised at the variety in the roads- loops, curves, etc... He was running cars on the roads and everything seemed fine. Then Noah came on the scene and wanted one of the cars. A fight ensued, and I gave Daniel a different car and told him that maybe it wasn't unreasonable to let Noah have one of the many cars...

One minute later, Daniel runs crying into the kitchen: Noah won't leave him alone. He is trying to mess up the paper roads, grab cars, etc. Noah follows, and leans over and screams, very high pitched and koud, in Daniel's ear. He has figured out that Daniel hates the sounds of screaming, espeically if it's high pitched. Daniel starts to cry, holding his ears, and Noah jubilantly continues shrieking at him. It goes back and forth like this for almost an hour- Daniel wants to play alone, Noah wants to join, and screams at Daniel every time he doesn't get to.

Daniel asks me to do something to make it so Noah can't scream anymore... I feel sorry for him, but on the other hand, Noah should get to play with things, too....it is hard to find a middle ground between them.

I have a brother named Daniel who was a little like Noah when he was young.

Now he is fourteen years old. Throughout his life he has on occasions been exceedingly mischevious, answering back to our parents, teasing people, lying and being obnoxious. Predictably, he has gotten into trouble for his actions; however, over time sibling rivalry has developed between Daniel and I, from the time when he had started to realise that he was getting into trouble more often than me.

Daniel now blames Mum for showing favouratism for me. His teasing has become more vicious, and worst of all, after reading an article on Autism, he calles me a liar for "pretending" to have Asperger's Syndrome, even though he has been displaying a mock imitation of me with my behavoural quirks for years even before my recent diagnosis. That comment has (mentally) cut me me very deep.

There is a kid in Daniel's year at high school who has also been diagnosed with AS. Before Daniel realised he had the condition, he had been telling me terrible terrible things about him; e.g. he's "openly gay", "perverted" and "ret*d", and other things to which I thought were exaggerated at the very least.

This makes me wonder whether I should put any weight to his taunts; However I still love him, even if he had wounded me pretty badly. At most other times, he is quite alright.

Actually, the truth of it is that Noah is a master at finding out what makes Aspergian Mutant, Daniel, and myself squirm and then doing just that if he feels like he isn't getting 100% of our attention. I rarely pay that much attention to anything unless I'm focusing on it, so he more or less torments us quite a lot. He is a loving and endearing child, but I can't help feeling sorry for Daniel.

And Daniel, while being almost unbelievably easy and pleasant to deal with, certainly isn't perfect. He gets pretty violent when provoked.

I guess what irks me about Noah is that he gets such obvious enjoyment out of tormenting Daniel, whereas Daniel's outbursts are reactions and then he wants it over with and forgotten. Noah doesn't have to have a reason- he will grab a metal truck the size of a brick, walk up to Daniel, and conk him with it for no good reason, smiling all the while. And Daniel is so ultra sensitive that it doesn't take much to upset him or make him cry.

I think that when I can (as soon as I can) I want to get Daniel his own bedroom where he can play undisturbed...

there must be something with the name Daniel.....my NT son, Daniel, was a torment to his brother when he was young ( the boys are preteens now)....we always thought that Daniel was the problem...running around, never sat still for long, always wanting to be active. as it turns out, he's NT and now a fine, respectable boy who is on a peer mediation committee at his school. ( this doesn'''''t mean that sibling rivalry has ended...they both can be very mean to each other and have learned what each others hot buttons are).....we never saw much "wrong" with our Aspie son as both my brother and my hubby displayed similiar temperamental qualities when they were young. they both reported wanting to play alone for hours on end, having a fascination with 1-2 topics, being verbally astute.............well, it turns out that both hubby and son have aspergers.both were diagnosed this summer.
the sibling rivalry does get better if you focus the boys on respecting each other. it is okay to tell each son that they have one or two special toys that their brother may not play with. if each boy is interested in playing with the same toy on a consistent basis, consider buying one brother the same toy ( in your case, trains)....when things got out of hand, i separated the two boys and made the offending one "take space". when the offending boy calmed down, i talked to him in simple terms about not hurting other peoples feelings....when both were out of hand, they both got sent to their rooms ( of course, this was easier when they weren't sharing a room). if you use the same calm method of seperating the boys each time, things will straighten out...they will learn that you mean business, and they will come to expect the consistency.

I can't give any adivce here, but it sound pretty horrible for all of you guys. Daniel would benefit if he could learn to play with others (he will be very glad to have that skill in school if he does and if he goes) but he shoudln't have to tolerate people pushing his buttons.

When my mom moved in with her boyfriend his NT daughter liked to manipulate people, too. I was 16 and mentally ill, she was 14, her daddy's little girl, and a liar. My mother refused to take sides so I had no advocate (she also said "the truth lies somewhere in between" when the daughter lied and I told the truth- though she KNEW how honest I am!) and eventually my mother just put me up in mt own apartment a mile away. It worked out for the best (I've been living on my own with her support since) but still, it really sucked.

It sounds like the kind of relationship me and my brother have. He's ADHD, and it seems he doesn't understand I want to be left alone. I evantually got used ot him, and he got used the idea of when I need to be alone as opposed to wanting to be alone. I do have to yell at him sometimes when he still doesn't understand. Being ADHD (I am too, btw), he gets bored easily. And often times it's jsut me and him alone in the house. He comes to me for entertainment. I usually get into a mediocre conversation or watch anime with him. Mind you, this routine took years to develope.He's 11, and I'm 17.

Daniel sounds like me when I was little. I didn't have a brother until 6, and he didn't start bugging me until a few years later. But Daniel well evantually get used to Noah, and if you can get Daniel to stick up for himself some, they might find a working compromise. Of course, something like that may or may not require help from parent(s). My brother still screams to annoy me, but it also annoys my mom, so he ralrely does it now.

I'm just glad I was an only child.

And as for the things-I-hate-as-a-wepaon thing...I did get that from people in my school, so I can still relate there. I don't see how kids (or teens) can be so cruel.

Remember that 3 years old is pretty young. I don't think that Noah is motivated by malice. I visited my relatives last year and met my 3 year old cousin for the first time. They're just approaching personhood, but in some ways are still babies. chamoisee, you described Noah as quite extroverted and outgoing. I get the impression that he knows how to get peoples attention, and enjoys the attention. But the one person who he can't get to pay attention to him is his brother. And his brother finds contentment in playing by himself, whereas Noah likes to interact with other people. I think that Noah feels frustrated and perhaps a bit envious of his brother, and expresses these feelings in these violent ways.

(I'm making a few assumptions here. This is just my reading of the situation!)

I think that Noah and Daniel need something that they can share with each other, as brothers. Perhaps my generation is biased, but my suggestion is video games. The reason I suggest this is because video games are very involving for kids, and playing with a friend or sibling can bring a strong sense of togetherness and shared experience. For a kid like Daniel I think this might be a good way for him to spend some time with his brother. There are many violent games coming out today, but at the same time there are also many kid-friendly games. The Nintendo Gamecube is especially well known for these.

Uh...hmmm...I forgot to mention that I'm expecting another baby, too. And that the father and I are both aspie? (poor Noah!!)

Noah has stopped the screaming as a weapon routine- at least on a regular basis. I think/hope that as he gets a little bit older things will calm down a little. Right now everyone tends to get irritated with him because he's little, active, and very bright and inquisitive (in other words, gets into everything in sight!).

Mediating betwen these two is quite the balancing act! I see that I've made Noah sound like a little monster, but I think that Venom has a point: he is sociable and lonely and wants someone to interact with. I have noticed that when I take him to daycare, they never complain much about him, so I think he must have positive interactions with the other kids there. I have received complaints that Daniel doesn't want/like to share whatever toys he is playing with.

Meanwhile, there's my daughter (age 7- older than Daniel). I had assumed she was NT, but we were just called to a teacher's conference where the (very extraverted and emotional) teacher was concerned that Mable is excruciatingly shy and self concious because she speaks very little, doesn't have any close friends, and enjoys reading just as much as playing with the other kids and sometimes prefers it! This child isn't shy at all...in fact, she's very self assured, opinionated and strong willed. She talks when she wants to.....and she and Daniel get along *just*fine*.

NT = Neurotypical aka Typically Developping or "Normal". Personally I can't stand the term myself, non-autistic is much more appropriate and honestly I doubt there is a single person out there that is "normal."


Yes my 2 sons definitely have the sibling rivalry going on between the oldest and the youngest. It gets on my nerves and I know it's typical for it to happen but at times, I want to plug my ears and wish it'd stop.

Thanks Mish I guess you couldn't call my 4 year old that anyway lol as I am trying to get him in for speech therapy before school starts!