Speech problems - part of AS?

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Are speech problems common with kids with AS? I'm concerned about my cousin. I think he either has AS or something along similar lines.

He's five years old and does not speak clearly. Since he's been in speech therapy at school I can understand him better. He's been in therapy on and off for about eight to ten months (they don't have it in the summer). But I still have trouble understanding what he says sometimes. Even when I can understand him, his speech is not clear. The average three year old talks more clearly than he does. I forget at what age kids typically start talking but I know he was behind by at least one year.

There are other things that concern me but this speech problem is the one that stands out the most.

If this speech problem isn't typical of AS, is there any other similar disorder that includes this type of speech problem? I know something isn't right with him, I just don't know what.

His parents are morons (they should not be allowed to have kids) and they wouldn't notice or do anything if he did have a problem. The only reason he's even in speech therapy is because the school strongly suggested it and it's free. If he'd been my child I would have put him in speech therapy a year earlier and I would've put him in one where he gets private time with the therapist. He needs more than going to speech therapy once or twice a week with a bunch of other kids. His parents don't even help him at home.

Yes. An immature grammatical structure and pronoun reversal are two of the big ones as children, as is a stereotyped way of speech; reciting passages from books on a special interest for example. There's also a lack of emotional inflection in [nearly] all cases.

What problems are you speaking of?

People with AS are sometimes late talkers. I'm reading Tony Attwood's The Complete Guide to Asperger's and it's got a whole chapter on speech difficulties.

my son had delayed speech, he is 6 and is still rather babyish with talking, he can say very big words but is immature when he speaks to people. He also now sounds quite stilted when he talks

With speech problems being the main thing you notice, I would not immediately suggest AS. It's good that the school district is providing him with speech services, but the school is not responsible for diagnostic evaluations. Usually those need to be pursued by the parent through the family doctor.

Hi Mj1, I'm a speech Pathologist.

It's important to differentiate speech from language, cognitive language issues vs delayed receptive or expressive language. They are all very different.

What you are describing are difficulties with speech ie articulation of sounds or a phonological disorder.

At five years of age there is a wide range of normal for sound development. Some children will speak more clearly than others. It is not unusual for " normal " children to still be perfecting normal speech up to 8 years of age, with later developing sounds and blends like th and skw ( like in squirrel )
Sounds have a developmental order of acquisition , just like children sit, crawl and walk at roughly the same times.
So some sounds will be present earlier than others. What sounds are missing and what sounds are substituted will determine if your cousin has a speech delay or disorder.

Just because he has problems with his speech it does not follow that he has other conditions. Speech problems can be stand alone. If his parents were slower to talk. it may be that your cousin is following a family pattern with sound development.. some children are just later to acquire perfect speech than others.

Also I would query has he had his hearing tested ? Has he had a lot of ear infections as a small child ? This will effect his speech.
Really the only way to know is to ask his Speech Therapist.

He is at a massive disadvantage if there is no home follow up, this is really the only way he will make progress of any significant nature. The amount of therapy itself will not make that big a difference other than raise his awareness.. what matters is consistent home practice with goals and activities set by the SLT. There is a general misconception that SLT time in abundance will fix all.. however.. it is more important that the family carry out goals and activities that are set and reviewed by the SLT regularly, the family spend the bulk of the time with the child and are in the best position to effect a change.

It's an interesting subject--whether speech is delayed in Asperger's. I believe, at times, it might be; remember: Autism and Asperger's are part of a SPECTRUM, not just one static disorder.

I was a late talker; I didn't speak until I was 5 1/2 years old. There are times when my ability to relate things in speech is impaired compared to what is in my mind at that same moment. At that time (1960's), the study by Asperger was published 20 years, but was not known except to a small group with access to esoteric knowledge. I don't believe I ever received an "official" diagnosis; they thought I was "ret*d," "brain-damaged," a person with "minimal brain dysfunction," and other labels I'm not even aware of. I believe I had some symptoms of Asperger's, some of which remain with me to this day. All in all, I believe I am on the "spectrum," but do not have the "full-blown" Asperger's disorder.

I believe I could be an example of a person with Asperger's who was a late talker. This, of course, contradicts what DSM IV says is a "criterium" of Asperger's as distinguished from Autism.

Have a nice day.

This is delayed language - not delayed speech. Speech and Language are different.

I believe I could be an example of a person with Asperger's who was a late talker. This, of course, contradicts what DSM IV says is a "criterium" of Asperger's as distinguished from Autism.[/quote]

The DSM mentions that there is no delay of language .. then goes on to describe a child with a language delay.

I think this depends on who is doing the assessing .. a speech therapist or a psych. A speech therapist will tell you that most children with AS have in fact disordered language, does this count as a delay or not ?

The problem with the DSM.. is that it is inaccurate and desperately needs to be updated.

I'm curious, I don't meanto seem too interrogative, but:

What is your definition of "speech?" I would say its the orally-produced expression of language; whereas sign [/i]language is produced "silently" (i.e., without oral speech) by bodily movements (mostly with the hands either alone, or upon another part of the body). Of course, this is "language" as well.

I had delayed [i]speech, according to the above definition. However, my "language" was not as delayed as my speech (even though I didn't "sign"). I knew how to count to at least 100 and read before I could speak.

Have a great day.

LOL....I have a Bachelor's in Speech Pathology, though I don't practice because I need a Master's. Of course, what Saffy said about "receptive" language is what I meant, for themost part, when I mentioned I knew how to count to 100 and to read. I just couldn't orally count to 100 or read. My delay, in truth, was in "expressive" language (hence, speech).

I believe I had the capability, cognitively, to both produce expressive language and to comprehend receptive language. However, somehow, my "circuits" were too screwed up until age 5 1/2 to be able to produce expressive language (i.e., orally-produced speech).

As I think about it, I see what Saffy means by "speech" though. Delayed "speech" is delayed phonological development, according to that definition of it. If a four-year-old substitutes /s/ for the "th" sound (can't write the Iinternatinal Phonetic Alphabet symbol for the "voiced th sound," then his phonological development is delayed (hence, by that definition, his "speech.")

My definition of "speech" remains more general: It's the "orally-produced realization of language."

Speech as far as a Speech Pathologist/ SLT is concerned is the production of the sound, what is spoken, the sound created by breath passing over the vocal folds and then shaped by a series of valves and cavities.

So if you have a speech delay- by definition you have a delay in sound acquisition, and are not using the expected sounds at the right time. There is a developmental order to sound acquisition.
If you have a dysfluency ( stuttering ) this effects your speech, not your language. ( although this could effect theoretically non verbal language through lack of confidence if this is an issue )
If you have a dysarthria this effects your speech, if you have a disorder of prosody or pitch, this effects speech not language.
If you have a cleft palate this effects your speech. However all of these various difficulties have other aspects.. eg tone, voice quality etc..
If you have a speech disorder you have sounds that are produced in a deviant way ( ie not a developmentally normal substitution or omission).

Speech disorders and delays can go on to effect language but can exist alone also.

Language is the content/structure and use of what you are saying or communicating via other means ( very simply put )

content - form- use ie .. so what vocabulary and words the child is using , how they are putting them together, and finally how they are using their language ( which includes pragmatics and non verbal communication like body language etc)
So we work with both verbal and non verbal language, as well as with social skills.. since social skills are based on the " use " aspect of language, both verbal and non verbal.
We also work with cognitive language and executive functioning - the thought processes/planning/attention/memory and problem solving skills that are language based.

Speech and Language can be independent of one another ie you can have language but not speech, just as you can have speech without language. However obviously for the typical child you would like to achieve both.

Most children with AS do not have speech delays or disorders at a rate any higher than any other section of the population. However they are more likely to have language disorders particularly pragmatics and some of the other areas given the wider definition. Most children with AS if tested on standard tests of language will in fact come out within normal limits or above. However when tested with tools that look at the bigger picture, particularly assessments that look at pragmatics and thought processes/concepts and inferences, this is where the differences will show.

Sorry if this all seems somewhat convoluted - I may come back and edit this.. I am attending to two small children while I write this.

Last edited by Saffy on 15 Oct 2008, 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

What you wrote makes sense. Thanks for the refresher course : - )

Please folks, I believe this is useful dialogue. I hope I didn't "stop" this thread "in its tracks."
I believe the DSM IV portrayal of language as it pertains to Asperger's is imprecise, and should be changed. Forums such as these promote this sort of activism, by allowing people to express themselves, thus inspiring others (who are more active activists than some who post) to take a leadership role as pertains this issue.

didn't have speech issues here.

I have enjoyed reading about speech versus language from an expert! Thank you!

My son David, now 13, is a diagnosed "Aspie". He didn't speak much until the age of three, but once he did speak, it was interesting to say the least! He often spoke to me in question format. For instance, when he was hungry and wanted something to eat, he would approach me and say "Are you hungry?" Our SLT told us to gently respond with, "No, I am not hungry, but are YOU hungry?"

He would also use lines from his favorite books or television shows to express himself. One of his favorite shows at that time was Winnie the Pooh. I remember one day hearing his younger brother start to cry over the nursery monitor, and I said, "Let me go get him before I fix your lunch." David responded with one of Owl's lines: "Oh! The nobility of it!" I laughed as I climbed the stairs to the nursery!

One day the boys and I were waiting downstairs for my husband to finish his shower. As soon as he was ready, we were going to leave for the zoo. At this particular point in time, David was obsessed with Disney's Beauty and the Beast. In the movie is a scene where the beast is pacing back and forth in an agitated state, waiting nervously for Belle to join him for dinner. David began pacing back and forth in the family room and yelled just like Beast, "Why isn't she coming down to dinner! I thought I told her to come down for dinner!" That was David's way of expressing his impatience with his father, and his anxiousness to leave for the zoo.

To MJ1, who was the originator of this topic: Speech and language problems are connected to a multitude of neurological diagnosis'! It would be impossible, even for a doctor, to make a diagnosis of a neurological nature strictly on speech and language. Your cousin's child needs a multidisciplinary evaluation so the entire picture can be seen, not just one part. However, like mentioned here earlier, it's up to the parents to start that process. My county offers free services and evaluations, thanks to us tax payers! If "free" appeals to your cousins, you could mention this to them. They could contact their county's intermediate unit and simply say, "I believe my child has a speech delay." That's all I had to do to get my son started with early intervention at the age of 2 years old. Of course, the intermediate unit could not give an official diagnoses because they aren't doctors, but they could treat the symptoms of neurological disorders. Once David was 4 years old, I made an appointment with a pediatric neurologist to diagnose him. I called my primary pediatrician first and got a referral to the neurologist. It's not hard to get a child the help they need, and the earlier the better!

Another comment: my first indication that something was different about David came long before he began speaking. In fact, I knew in his infancy! The speech issue was just the cherry on top.

I wish you good luck persuading your cousins to call their county intermediate unit! There is a lot of help out there for special kids, but it all starts with parental permission.