Lying

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How does lying fit into symptoms? I'm having difficulties in getting my daughter to tell the truth or not "invent" stories and was wondering if it's related to aspergers.

Disclaimer: I am not a parent.

I don't think lying is an aspie thing in the least. Bluntly telling the truth when a normie would know you shouldn't is. Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

Lying or making up stories (maybe you could give examples) could be for numerous reasons.

People lie.

It does not matter what syndrome or condition they may have. Deception is as natural to humans as ferocity is natural to carnivores - it's part of the general human condition.

I have heard people on this forum speaking of exactly what the OP mentions - making up grandiose stories for really no reason.

It's completely foreign to me but whatever *shrug*

From what I have read, Aspies tend to go either one way or the other on this subject.

Long story as to why I'm asking. But in the end my daughter’s lying is becoming extreme. I know people lie by nature to avoid consequences.
A quick example would be;

“why did you take your sisters I-pod”

“I didn’t” while holding it in her hands and would argue that she doesn’t have it and then put it down and point it out “there it is!”

Maybe not a good example but very similar to what’s going on.

I tend to think that Aspies tend to feel threatened by things more easily.

The response to that feeling of threat -- being evasive by lying -- is a general human thing.

If she's not actually feeling threatened or fearful of anything, well then I don't have a clue!

yes everyone lies-its a human thing

I do the same thing when my mother asks me if I took some object.

I am ADHD/Asperger - I have short memory problems sometimes I take something like an object to my room and forget, people ask me if I took and I say no.

My family thinks I am lying, but I am not, I just forgot.

This is a tricky question. I think most AS prefer to be literal and exact. But that can also be a problem.

"Did you take the ipod" can be understood as "did you take the ipod yesterday" to which an honest answer might be no. Or she can have herself convinced that it isn't her sisters. And so on.

With my son, the question is "did you wash your hands?" to which he will happilly and truthfully answer "yes" because sometime in his life he has. So, we have learned to ask, "did you wash your hands within the last 5 minutes?"

Truth is extrememly important to him, but the social nuances related to it are difficult to grasp. When I ask him not to tell his sister her picture is ugly, he thinks I am asking him to lie. What I'm asking, of course, is that he learn not to say anything if he can't say something nice, but to him even that sounds dishonest.

So ....

Another thing that can happen because of all this literal thinking, is that AS child comes to see the entire world as lying all the time, decides everyone is a hypocrite when they demand the child not lie, and make a choice to ignore the rule about lying, because everyone else seems to. I've read quite a few posters on this forum explain how they developed this thinking when younger. If you look at the examples above about my son, and how he seems to sincerely believe that my asking him to withhold his criticism of his sister is asking him to lie, you can see how easy it is for a very literal AS child to reach the conclusion that the whole world simply lies all the time.

Which means you have to really work at teaching the nuance of what is a lie, and what isn't. There is no "you know what I meant" and there is no "sometimes a white lie is OK" in their world. The rules need to be clear and they need to see YOU and other family members follow them at all times. You have to work at establishing trust so your child feels safe communicating to you how she views lying in herself and in others, so that you can help her navigate better.

Finally, do also consider if she has a clear boundary in her thinking between fantasy and reality. An NT son of my friends was a first class lier, and it wasn't evil intended at all. It was just, well, his life wasn't what he wanted it to be so inside his own mind he pretended it was. I'm not sure he even knew the difference at times, the fantasy had become so innate to him. So, another possiblity to consider ...

One more thing:

>I'm having difficulties in getting my daughter to tell the truth or not "invent" stories

It's very hard to just not do something or stop someone doing something. A person needs something to do instead of what they're doing, most often, because they have done the thing for a reason in the first place. They have to see the value of doing something else instead, and then engage with that. So I think framing the problem as one of control and eradicating a behaviour puts you at a disadvantage from the start. I have found this principle useful in problem solving.

I lie when it's for a good reason, but I don't lie just for the sake of it like some people (NT or not) do.

I hate being accused of lying when I'm telling the truth. Like when I forgot I had a meeting with the headteacher, I explained that some girl shoved me and caused a big argument before I had a chance to fix the appointment into my brain, the teacher disbelieved me, and I said, "That wasn't a lie, that was actually the truth, Miss."

Then she told me to read a poster she had on the wall (summat about not becoming a victim, we always have a choice...which I could easily spin to be contrary to her point, but I didn't wanna seem cheeky). And she said, "That was quick," and thought I hadn't bothered reading it. So when she asked what it said, I told her - proved her wrong. I'm just a fast reader.

I will never forget this one time in Year 3, when I was accused of trying to strangle some girl (who happened to be the teacher's kid). I have NO IDEA how that one got pinned on me, I had been somewhere completely different at the time. No matter how much I denied it, the teacher was all, "You calling my daughter a liar?" and I said no, for some reason, I should have said yes, cos she clearly WAS lying.

You have probably heard some people say, "there is no such thing as a bad child, only bad actions". I'm here to tell you that is completely false. Humans by nature are bad people. Its not something we learn, its built into us. Humans are naturally greedy, lying, selfish, and inconsiderate people. Its just that as we grow up, we learn to suppress our natural behaviors in order to function better in society. Children are still learning this, and as such they are more likely to lie for a multitude of reasons. Getting out of trouble is the first most obvious one that comes to mind. Also children might lie by creating fanciful stories to impress others, and gain popularity. We all know the kid who claimed his father was famous, or made up wild stories in order to get attention.

The problem as this relates to autism/AS is that we are horrible at lying. Lying requires you to understand how other people think, and then develop a story that they are likely to believe. When you dont understand how other people think, you will inevitably come up with ridiculous lies. For example: When I was younger (about age 8 I think), I saw a shiny silver dollar on my father's dresser which I wanted. I took the coin and put it in my pocket, then I later forgot about it. When my mother was doing the wash she found the coin in my pocket and asked me about it. A normal child might consider the situation and come up with an answer like: O there it is, I wondered where I put that coin. I wanted to ask dad a question about his coin, but then when I got to his office I couldnt find it. I must have been checking the wrong pocket. This answer is semi-plausible, and might work. My answer however was: I dont know, it must have just fallen in my pocket when I wasn't looking. As you can imagine, my mother didn't believe that answer.

So, all that to say, lying is a completely normal part of childhood. Coming up with wild stories that dont make any sense is because she isnt very good at lying.