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fueledbycoffee
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21 Jun 2013, 1:33 pm

The word sandbox gets thrown around a lot, without much justification. Games like GTA or Just Cause are called Sandboxes, because they give you a huge world with supposedly few limitations. The problem with this is that they give you a world, true, but there's very little to actually do in it, except for kill random people and do missions. They've started to do things like allow you to purchase property, but that property just serves to accrue money automatically, without requiring any actual involvement from the player.

I recently started playing a game called Wurm Online. You may or may not of heard of it. I'm pretty tuned in, and I'd heard of it, but just barely. It existed on the very edge of my consciousness. Basically, you go through a really boring tutorial, pick a server, and then receive absolutely no guidance from there. I've mostly been wandering around trying not to starve or die of thirst while I pick out a plot to build a nice little homestead. Easier said than done, considering that leveling terrain and mining so that I can craft nails is a bit beyond my skill level. That's right, you can alter the terrain as much as you and your digging level see fit. Dig up some dirt here, dump it on a slope, and it alters the grade of the slope. The building and terraforming are ridiculously detail, which is no surprise as Notch from Mojang co-created it.

Other games, may not let you alter the terrain, but they offer nearly as much freedom on how to approach the world, on where you want to build a house, on what business you want to make, or whether or not you just want to be a human-hide wearing cannibal brigand. Camelot Unchained, which just got kickstarted, is planning on allowing an insane level of customization for housing, along with a completely player-based economy. And of course, we all know EVE and Minecraft.

I am amazed by these games, all of them. I've played MMOs for a decade and a half, and this is by far the most immersion I've experienced in a game world since Ultima Online, thanks to the ability to completely shape the world without the designers holding you hand to try and make a movie or something. Yet, I think they aren't for everyone. What do you guys think of this genre? It's not new, per se, but it is emerging, and I'm curious as to your opinions.



redrobin62
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21 Jun 2013, 2:01 pm

I like Fallout 3 and Fallout 3: New Vegas. I often delayed going on missions by just walking around and doing fun stuff on the side.



lostonearth35
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21 Jun 2013, 2:32 pm

I have found many 3D "sandbox" games, especially the older ones, to have an empty, wandering feel to them and you often go around in circles trying to find something or figure out what to do. Only I didn't know until a short time ago what a "sandbox game" was and had visions of wandering around in a giant box of sand and getting it into every crevice, which I hate. :lol: Actually it might be cool to take my Super Mario figurines to a sandbox or the beach but other adults would think I was a "special needs" person. No fun at all. :(



staremaster
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21 Jun 2013, 2:55 pm

I really liked Far Cry 2. That was the first sandbox game I played that would sometimes actually spawn enemies beyond the engine's draw distance instead of 50 meters away.



sixstring
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21 Jun 2013, 4:50 pm

If you say that there's nothing to do in GTA but to shoot people, you clearly have never played GTA. There is so much other stuff to do.



fueledbycoffee
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21 Jun 2013, 7:00 pm

sixstring wrote:
If you say that there's nothing to do in GTA but to shoot people, you clearly have never played GTA. There is so much other stuff to do.


Fly around, steal cars, shoot people, buy businesses (And then never do anything else with them), and do a FEW sidequests. There were some nice little boosts to IV, like girlfriends and pub games, but the reason why GTA isn't a true sandbox is because, well, your involvement is extremely limited. You have no control over your business, the interpersonal stuff is limited to [pretty much] driving, etc. You also have no real control over Niko/CJ/Tommy/Claude's abilities or progression, aside from the weapons you choose to use.

I'm not knocking it, and it has some sandbox elements, but it isn't a true sandbox. It's an Action/RPG with a really big, but fairly shallow world. I don't love it any less for that, though. Had a lot of good times.



Misery
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21 Jun 2013, 7:28 pm

fueledbycoffee wrote:
sixstring wrote:
If you say that there's nothing to do in GTA but to shoot people, you clearly have never played GTA. There is so much other stuff to do.


Fly around, steal cars, shoot people, buy businesses (And then never do anything else with them), and do a FEW sidequests. There were some nice little boosts to IV, like girlfriends and pub games, but the reason why GTA isn't a true sandbox is because, well, your involvement is extremely limited. You have no control over your business, the interpersonal stuff is limited to [pretty much] driving, etc. You also have no real control over Niko/CJ/Tommy/Claude's abilities or progression, aside from the weapons you choose to use.

I'm not knocking it, and it has some sandbox elements, but it isn't a true sandbox. It's an Action/RPG with a really big, but fairly shallow world. I don't love it any less for that, though. Had a lot of good times.



Aye, that.


Generally when I think of sandbox games, I think of Minecraft and the various games that spawned from it, of which there are many now. Or games like Dwarf Fortress, which was around well before Minecraft was. No stupid narrative that I have to follow and be bored by, and no pre-made things that I must or must not do. Part of the landscape bothers me? I can dig it away, blast it with explosives, build on it to change how it looks.... whatever I want. Monsters of various sorts being a pain? I can deal with them how I see fit, with whatever tools I want, provided that I have gotten those tools.

And I like how goals in these games work. The games dont just outright give you any structure other than "try to survive!", so you have to come up with your own goals. Which can then lead to OTHER goals based on whatever happens. I might decide to make a simple house in Minecraft, and decide that I want brick walls. So "gather clay" might become my current goal. In the process of doing that, maybe I discover a convenient cave. I might then decide that getting some extra coal or whatever from that is a new goal. Maybe discover an abandoned mine or something of that nature in there.... exploring and fighting my way through there to access it's treasures might become the next goal that I decide on. And so on. I find that it's very rare that I'm not sure what to do next in this sort of game.



1401b
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21 Jun 2013, 7:35 pm

I always had to bring my own toys to the sandbox, especially a tonka-toy loader for digging out all the cat poop.
Sounds like game sandboxes are properly named. =)


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22 Jun 2013, 2:30 am

fueledbycoffee wrote:
sixstring wrote:
If you say that there's nothing to do in GTA but to shoot people, you clearly have never played GTA. There is so much other stuff to do.


Fly around, steal cars, shoot people, buy businesses (And then never do anything else with them), and do a FEW sidequests. There were some nice little boosts to IV, like girlfriends and pub games, but the reason why GTA isn't a true sandbox is because, well, your involvement is extremely limited. You have no control over your business, the interpersonal stuff is limited to [pretty much] driving, etc. You also have no real control over Niko/CJ/Tommy/Claude's abilities or progression, aside from the weapons you choose to use.

I'm not knocking it, and it has some sandbox elements, but it isn't a true sandbox. It's an Action/RPG with a really big, but fairly shallow world. I don't love it any less for that, though. Had a lot of good times.


Try Saints Row 2 if you are looking for a similar sandbox which involves a lot, I really want someone to make a game similar to Saints Row 2 with updated graphics.

GTAIV isn't a great example, it has good graphics and production values for the time but outside of the main missions, there wasn't enough to do. There are tons of mini games and attractions in Saints Row 2 and if you finish all of them, there's co-op and multi-player mode.



22 Jun 2013, 2:39 am

GTAV looks promising though.

Quote:
Features

You can buy property; houses, garages, businesses and marinas can all be purchased for extra revenue sources.
You can pick up hitchikers, do stunt jumps and flying challenges, take part in yoga, golf, tennis, bike races and triathlons.
iFruit, the game's new phone, can be used to snap pictures and upload them to Rockstar's Social Club
The phone also has apps. In addition to the camera there is internet, contacts, social media, a calendar, and a replay missions app. There are three more Rockstar hasn't yet revealed.
A combat roll has been introduced for moving between cover
Liquor store and ATM robberies is possible.
Side missions will be making a return. One would involve Michael in Vinewood Boulevard racing a starlet away from the paparazzi.
Citizens will react to what you do, and if they see you robbing someone they could alert the police, film you, or even try to take you down themselves.
Hunting animals.

Customization

Player customization - tattoos, haircuts, clothing
Vehicle customization - paintjobs, wheels, window tints, grills, spoilers, along with robust performance upgrades to suspension, engine, brakes, and more that make meaningful changes to the way vehicles feel and handle
Weapon customization - Silencers, scopes, extended mags, laser sights, and more


Police Encounters:

The classic wanted system will be making a return - with five stars instead of the usual six.

They make the police encounters sound better, too. In this new game, we can still try to escape the circular zone that flashes on the mini-map when cops come after our malcontent protagonist(s). But, this time, we'll be able to try to hide inside that alarm radius, if we'd like. The cops will use a line-of-sight system, so they won't just magically know where you are. If they have a helicopter in the sky, they'll be able to see plenty. And you'll see them use hand signals to communicate what they're doing.
- Kotaku

Skill Categories:

Each character is rated in a series of skill categories: Stamina, Shooting, Strength, Stealth, Flying, Driving, Mechanic, Lung Capacity.
Each character has a 'Special': Franklin is an adrenalin junkie and can slow down time while driving; Trevor has a frenzy mode, where he does double damage, takes half damage, and has a unique melee attack; Michael has his own version of bullet time
Specials are governed by a meter, it drains after use and recharges slowly
Other skill categories are shared and can be improved by completing missions, side missions, activities and more
Trevor will always be the best pilot, Franklin will always be the best driver but each can improve their proficiency a little
One of the skill categories is stealth, suggesting players will be able to take different approaches to missions


Map

Similar to previous GTAs, the map isn't landlocked (surrounded by water).
The map 3.5 times the size of Red Dead Redemption in terms of playable area above ground. Five times if you count underwater area.
The geographical scope is huge and spans:
Mountains
Rivers
Lakes
Military bases
Farmland
Desert
Dense urban environments...and more
An underwater ecosystem exits, "the sea is teaming with fish and sharks"
A deer and a wildcat were spotted in the mountains.
Treasures can be found underwater, but NPCs will be looking for them too
Shipwrecks, sharks, hidden treasures and more could be found underwater
The entire world is populated with fitting wildlife and inhabitants unique to specific areas


Heists/missions

'Mini heists' are used to teach the player about preparation. Players must secure vehicles, outfits, masks, the getaway vehicle.
These build up to a bigger heist where the execution must be flawless. They'll require the right crew (which you can recruit) and players will have to decide on the cheap option, which results in less skilled people, or paying more for skilled crew members that will take a larger cut of the money.
These additional characters will be able to specialize in different areas such as wheelman, gunman, technician, and so on.
Hiring the same crew members across several heists (assuming they survive) will allow their skills to improve
There will be visual and audio alerts from your other characters so you're not completely caught off guard in case things get hairy.
You can attack targets by stealth or brute force. This will affect the content of the heist.
A huge payout to split between the crew
After-action report that tallies your total cash haul, each surviving member's cut, and any profit you managed to earn


Refinements to combat:

Weapon selection has been overhauled: You now select your weapons from a weapon wheel.
Fluidly run and gun from the hip while still maintaining complete control of the reticule
'Combat jog' that allows you to move at high speeds with your weapon out, but not raised.
Camera pulled back when zoomed in over the shoulder to open up players' field of vision
Combat roll to move strategically from cover and evade incoming fire
Reticule switches from white to red to identity an enemy
Tiny 'X' flashes over the reticule when targeted enemy is killed
Variable targeting options including free aim, soft lock, and hard lock (similar to Max Payne 3)
Smoother transitions when moving in and out of cover


General

The character selection wheel is split into four triangles: Franklin, Trevor, Michael, and your multiplayer character
Some boats will include gear such as wetsuit, flippers and tanks for diving
GTAV rewards exploration, there's no signposting underwater, so you'll have to find the treasure the hard way
Dives won't offer massive payoffs, but will "help grease the wheels"
Pressing Down on the d-pad will drop the play in and out of multiplayer.
There are subtle differences in the way each character moves to reflect their personalities; Michael is slower and deliberate.
Rockstar says there will be five times as many pedestrians in GTAV as there were in Grand Theft Auto IV
There's a "crazy level of detail": Tourist buses can be boarded for a tour of celebrity homes, film posters are plastered on the walls, men in comedy costumes try to corner you outside the Cathay Theatre, including the Superman-like Impotent Rage and Master Chief riff, Space Ranger.
You can switch between Franklin, Trevor and Michael during a cutscene, manually, or automatically when the AI takes control for you
Each character has a job to do, how much you switch yourself in or let the computer do, is entirely up to you
If you die the game reloads to the last checkpoint, even if two other characters are alive
Although it's up to the player when they switch, dialogue will suggest ideal moments. For example, when Michael and Franklin are being overwhelmed by snipers, Michael might ask for Trevor's help.
There is a wider field of vision, and players can run-and-gun
There are some restrictions to character switching, such as how you can't abandon a character while you have a Wanted Level. Lose the heat first! The character selection meter will let you know when you can swap out.
Michael's obsession with classic films translates into in-game set pieces based on real world movies. In the demo the three characters mount a heist very similar to the one from Heat.


Fun Facts:

Franklin alone has more textures than the entire ped population of GTA: San Andreas
Largest selection of vehicles in any GTA game
Largest selection of weapons in any GTA game



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22 Jun 2013, 3:31 am

I'm sure no one will agree with me but I think Saints Row The third is currently the best open world sandbox game. it's got almost everything one could want, as far as gameplay and customization goes. it's got so much more than GTA 4, and yes I've played GTA 4, GTA SA, GTA 3, GTA VC. And I loved them all, but they all got boring too fast. they got old. of course I still play each of them from time to time. I played Saints Row 2 as well, it was better than most GTA games, but pretty much on the same level as GTA SA. I've seen the videos for Saints Row 4, and I'm very pleased to see all the new stuff it's going to have. As for GTA 5, I want it, I know I'll like it, but it just won't be as fun or exciting as SR3 or SR4. I'm going to wait until Christmas for GTA 5, but SR4, I'm going to pre order it next month.



22 Jun 2013, 5:08 am

transformingcar wrote:
I'm sure no one will agree with me but I think Saints Row The third is currently the best open world sandbox game. it's got almost everything one could want, as far as gameplay and customization goes. it's got so much more than GTA 4, and yes I've played GTA 4, GTA SA, GTA 3, GTA VC. And I loved them all, but they all got boring too fast. they got old. of course I still play each of them from time to time. I played Saints Row 2 as well, it was better than most GTA games, but pretty much on the same level as GTA SA. I've seen the videos for Saints Row 4, and I'm very pleased to see all the new stuff it's going to have. As for GTA 5, I want it, I know I'll like it, but it just won't be as fun or exciting as SR3 or SR4. I'm going to wait until Christmas for GTA 5, but SR4, I'm going to pre order it next month.


Saints Row 2 had more activities, more re-playability, more customization options and a better storyline plus I know this is personal preference but Stillwater had a lot more unique areas whereas Steelport like a huge industrial city with a few skyscrapers.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1eNIvs9-AE[/youtube]



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22 Jun 2013, 5:33 am

Kazuki wrote:
transformingcar wrote:
I'm sure no one will agree with me but I think Saints Row The third is currently the best open world sandbox game. it's got almost everything one could want, as far as gameplay and customization goes. it's got so much more than GTA 4, and yes I've played GTA 4, GTA SA, GTA 3, GTA VC. And I loved them all, but they all got boring too fast. they got old. of course I still play each of them from time to time. I played Saints Row 2 as well, it was better than most GTA games, but pretty much on the same level as GTA SA. I've seen the videos for Saints Row 4, and I'm very pleased to see all the new stuff it's going to have. As for GTA 5, I want it, I know I'll like it, but it just won't be as fun or exciting as SR3 or SR4. I'm going to wait until Christmas for GTA 5, but SR4, I'm going to pre order it next month.


Saints Row 2 had more activities, more re-playability, more customization options and a better storyline plus I know this is personal preference but Stillwater had a lot more unique areas whereas Steelport like a huge industrial city with a few skyscrapers.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1eNIvs9-AE[/youtube]


I just want to say that in the case of character customization, SR3 did in fact have more options. personally, The Storyline for any game doesn't matter to me, it's all about gameplay. however, I thought SR3 had a much more amusing story. I still play SR2 sometimes, but it never give me the excitement that SR3 still does.
it may not of had as many Car customization options as SR2 had, but the character customization was way better in SR3.
anyway, I like all the GTA and GTA style games, even Just Cause or Driver if that one counts. I really don't think people give these games, such as SR3. and now SR4, as much respect as they deserve.
I used to think GTA SA was the best game ever, I still play it, I might play it today. but, in all honesty, if it wasn't for the crazy mods people made I would have lost interest years ago.
So, I think I'm going to spend today appreciating all the games that get overlooked due to whatever reason makes people think a game has no entertainment value.



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22 Jun 2013, 11:49 pm

Been playing wurm on and off since early 2006 or something like that :nerdy:


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23 Jun 2013, 3:23 am

fueledbycoffee wrote:
Fly around, steal cars, shoot people, buy businesses (And then never do anything else with them), and do a FEW sidequests. There were some nice little boosts to IV, like girlfriends and pub games, but the reason why GTA isn't a true sandbox is because, well, your involvement is extremely limited. You have no control over your business, the interpersonal stuff is limited to [pretty much] driving, etc. You also have no real control over Niko/CJ/Tommy/Claude's abilities or progression, aside from the weapons you choose to use.

I'm not knocking it, and it has some sandbox elements, but it isn't a true sandbox. It's an Action/RPG with a really big, but fairly shallow world. I don't love it any less for that, though. Had a lot of good times.


This game is over 10 years old. That's basically what sandbox games were - that or Morrowind or Daggerfall, among others.

The state of the art develops over time and newer games provide more and more to do.



fueledbycoffee
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23 Jun 2013, 7:46 am

kra17 wrote:
Been playing wurm on and off since early 2006 or something like that :nerdy:


Dude, nice! Let me ask you, what's a good way to level my digging? It seems that a slight grade is too steep for my to dig, and flattening an area so's I can build on it is right out.