Religion and Womens' rights

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ok, I think I finally understand why the new age movement is growing, but I DONT understand why Islam is growing as fast as it is.
Here is my thoughts on it....
No offence intended!
I think that more people are turning to more liberal forms of religion because of the "if you dont believe me you're going to hell" mind set that mant religions seem to have. Also I think that the religions that so not limit a woman because of her gender and those that do not runn off homosexuals because of their preferences will be the winners in the religion "war", if you will, in the end.
I respect other faiths than my own, but I have a difficult time understanding why many women (like a few i know) turn to religions that do not allow them to do half what the men can do. The extreme example is fundemetalist Islam. I understand not wanting to change if one was born into a religion, but deciding to give up some if not all freedoms as a woman perplexes me.
Personally I feel that gender, be that physical or not, should not matter in ones worship.
Who else has an opinion on this?

Some people need limits. They need to believe they're a part of something larger, and to be told what to do and how to behave. There are also those who feel the need to impose limits on others and make declarations about what groups are more worthy than others. Get enough of those two types together and you have a party! A really boring party with no booze or flirting. There's this really weird vibe going on right now where everyone's picking an extreme and running towards it. I hope it doesn't get too much worse before it gets better.

i dont believe in organized religion, but people should be allowed to believe in any religion they want regardless of their gender.we're all human,so its shouldnt matter who you are.

Islam is not the only one that is sexist.
Most religions are.
With the exception of religion practiced by the Amazons.

I can say that one of my primary reasons for finally ditching any bible based religion (I'm now agnostic) was due to the inherent misogyny of the bible and the religions based on it. I tried a number of brands of Christianity, messianic Judaism, and then was seriously considering conversion to conservative or orthodox Judaism, which, oddly enough, was probably the most woman-friendly choice of them all. I never asked to be born female, but I have a hard time belieiving that something as insignificant as different sex parts should have such a profound effect on my equality in something that was supposed to be spiritual.

I just used that as a familiar example.
I simply find it intresting that so many religions are sexist. I cant help but to wonder, however, at what point in human history this was "decided" and at what point in the future, if ever, will the tables turn. I an opinion there, but I want to see what everyone else thinks before I voice that...
I do hope that we all can have a good civil debate on the topic.

Truly in the eyes of God we are all equal. In the eyes of men we are not. That is what makes us being us no matter what religion we are in the end or not. I think if we where more spiritual we would be better off then too.

It would be great if every single Christian agreed with you but they don't.
Think of all the cults, and No women priests.

Even Budhism which I regard very highly, has not had a female ruler.
Or has it?
I have another question too, is there a case where Budhists have committed genocide?

Ladysmokeater: Not all Muslims are fundamentalists. That would be like saying that all Christians are Orthodox, and that all Jews were as well. This is simply not true.

An important fact about the Muslim faith is that Mohammed was the sheperd of his wive's flocks.
Mohammed's wife was the principle wage earner for her family, and one of the most prominent business persons for her time and region. With this in mind, there exists a fairly strong feminist position at the foundation of Islam. This position is much more heavily played out in the Sufi tradition then other places in Islam.

Irishmic,
Yes, I am aware of this. And, I should have been more delicate in my post. I think, however, that many westerners are of the assumption that the fundamentlists are the examples of the culture as a whole. I hadn't intended to seem as if I was generalizing an entire faith in that manner. That was not my intent. I have, as many Christians (and those of other faiths) have not, read the Koran. (Well it was an english translation on pages oppisite the islamic script) And I am familiar with much of the foundations layed out there. But I used that example because it is the one most folks are familiar with because of the media exposure it recieves. I'm all about fair and equal when it comes to religion. Although most religions are not.

Mithrandir,
Yes, I know that all religons are not as many wish and see us as equals in "the eyes of God". I find it a pitty that people use religion as a spring board for political agendas, violence, etc. And some religions are more peaceful than others. For that, I am thankful. I was under the understanding (and perhaps I was told incorrectly) that Quan Yin was the only female buddah. Again, I'll have to go back and check my source.


I guess that I find it difficult, as a woman, to feel that religion is best left up to the men. I live in the Bible belt, and have even been shunned by members of a church (southern baptist) because I work in a "man's job" and I do not conform to the "unspoken dress code" that southern ladies are sometimes expected to follow. (I wear dress pants not dresses to church. My church has no problem with it, although some neighboring ones clearly do) I have even been told, by a female member of a church of the same denomination that women were not supposed to wear pants to worship, and that I was not going to have a proper place in heaven if I dared wear pants. She also was kind enough to point out that I wasnt welcome if I did not wear a dress. Needless to say, I did not return. That denomonation does not allow females to be ordained, and, as I am to understand it, they may not "lead men" in matters of worship.
So I understand folks flocking to places where the emphisis is less on gender roles and so forth, and more on attaing some sort of peace in worship. But I do not understand those women that CHOOSE to change directions and give up rights they had to follow a path that limit a womans independance. And I do not understand how some (not all) men can justify those limits if you exclude religious and cultural reasons.

PS Im glad this is not becoming a nasty debate as others have. Thank you that.

The problems we have with religion and gender roles are largely sociological ones, rather than spiritual, I would think. I believe, however, that men are supposed to be more 'spiritual' than women (the sky is said to be male, while the earth is female in most ancient mythologies). But others say women are more spiritual than men. In most ancient times there were women soothsayers and such etc. If anyone could illuminate this issue, I would be appreciative!

I have no problems with Islam by itself, but with the obvious corruption and BS pollitics that are inherent in Islamic countries. They claim to revere and respect women, when they are little more than slaves in this world. They have no concept whatsoever of the fact that church and state are two seperate entities. They are centuries, not just decades, behind in their social thinking. 9/11 was a rude wakeup call that our relationship with the Middle East is not going to get better any time soon.

Of course, I think these problems could be resolved, theoretically, if these countries were taken over and new governments were installed; Democratic (dare I say, secular) governments that encouraged free speech and commerce. It would likely do the world a favor, and I don't think this barbarism can last forever.

I attend a church where women cannot be priests. Women are not allowed to teach men, so women can lead the children's groups up to the age of 18 but only men can teach men. Women can teach other women though and I regularly lead a women's Bible study group.

I grew up with a lesbian feminist mother. I found my Mother's views to be hugely chauvanistic and anti-women. Mum believes that unless I am running a bank or am a leading journalist or politician, my contribution to society is worthless. I am wasting my life as a stay at home mother according to her.

Whereas in church I am treated with dignity and respect in all the things I choose to do in life and my church is full of stay at home mums but also with career women, doctors, women lawyers, etc etc. We women there are not idiots and if the church treated us without respect we would vote with our feet and leave - there are many other churches in the local area.

When I have had a theological problem I have gone to see the male minister and have spoken to him at length about my views, about which he is entirely respectful and he asked me to read some books and then said he would be interested to know my views on them. I am a valued member of my church.

So there is no correlation in my mind, with being allowed to preach and being afforded respect. My worth in my "sexist" church is valued way more than my worth in my feminist mother's eyes.

Just another point of view.

Catholicism is easily among the most sexist institutions still in existence in the world. Their attitude toward women is practically medieval. No birth control, no authority in the church's administration(I use that word because the Vatican is run like a business). I was raised Catholic and I don't understand why my mother and sister support such sexism. But it's true, a lot of mainstream religions have unenlightened attitudes toward women, and while it's not what turned me off of organized religion, it hasn't helped.

Nothing wrong with being a mother!! ! Having a family is no waste that is for sure!!



No one ever thought any one was an idiot. I think I was getting more at the way some things are viewed than assuming there was any defect in thinking.
How does your church (doctrine wise) stand on women working out side the home, and women taking leadership roles outside church, and women in "mens" jobs? There have been female lawyers, and doctors for a long time in our society, so those are generally more accepted roles. What about female fighter pilots, or female police officers, or female firefighters, or female soldiers, or female president (or other political leader)? Some churches in the area where I live are not supportive of such roles. Some even are outright against them. My church, the doctrine doesnt forbid these roles anymore if I have understood it correctly. So I am fortunate. But attending another church might be a different story. How does your church justify or explaine the women not leading men rule? Do you agree with their reasons?

Please dont take my questions the wrong way. I intend them to be as respectful as possible. I am mearly intrested in how other women (and maybe some men) look at and justify things that are sexist in religion. So please do not take offence. Im not, although I may sound as such, a "feminist". I dont push one gender as being better than another. but I am for equality across the board. I think that the choices should be there regaurdless of how one worships.
Thank you for your viewpoints.

As far as I know, my church does not have any particular view about women in "men's" jobs but then my church tends to be full of office workers who work in jobs in the City. (Stockbrokers and the like). Not many fighter pilots out there!



I think it's the teaching of St Paul that men are the head of a marriage and women are equal but have separate roles. Some secular thinking is that men and women are entirely equal, but my church disagrees along the lines that women cannot father children and men cannot bear children, so men and women are equal BUT complementary to each other's roles. Parents are equally in charge over children, but husbands are the heads of marriages. In terms of preaching I think St Paul spoke out against women being in authority over men. Also, the created order comes into it - God made man first and then woman. So if a woman is in charge over a man it goes against God's created order. I realise that I sound a bit vague about this, it's because I don't see it as a particularly key part of my church's doctrine, and I am ecumenical so would have no problem attending a church where women are priests. I attend my church not because of its ideas about women preachers but because it's a very good church that teaches the Bible faithfully. The women preacher thing is jsut something I put up with because I'm not particularly keen to preach myself. My husband doesn't like my church's teaching and it has made him want to leave the church. He's more of a feminist than I am.

Thanks for your post.

amazons are myth