17 May 2008, 1:00 am
17 May 2008, 1:23 am
Escuerd wrote:
This is interesting. I'm not entirely clear on what you're saying. Do you consider the "Bismillah" an expression of emotion that, literally interpreted, is making a false statement?
Separately, couldn't it be said that all things that are "just are" and that any attributes we ascribe to them are just our way of making sense of them?
To me it seems that even stating that there are no attributes that describe a given thing is implicitly giving it the attribute of "indescribable". An attribute can be true of something without being a total description of that thing, right?
Bismillah is a prayer/supplication, at least from what I understand. It is also an acknowledgment. What do you mean by making a false statement?
Yes.
I understand the last part. It's a tricky situation, being that it is either describable/with attributes or indescribable/no attributes. The latter just doesn't specify. Myself, I don't like giving attributes and titles because it seems like idolatry. I'd rather just say "He Is." Usually the person will understand this. There is really nothing more that I can add. He is Everything and Nothing.
Most of the people I've told that to don't like the response though.
17 May 2008, 1:41 am
17 May 2008, 1:50 am
17 May 2008, 2:02 am
Speckles wrote:
Actually, IMO free-will does work so long as the Creator doesn't really care what you do. Just because you know everything and CAN change anything doesn't mean you have to. Though, when you think about it Omnipotent/Omniscient doesn't work together - if you know everything, then you know what you are going to do next, and so have no choice in the matter. If you do something different, then you didn't know what you were going to do, and so don't know everything.
God powers lead to many paradoxes.
As for spirituality, I'd call myself a christian-flavor agnostic. The church I grew up in has always been very low key - I've always felt very supported by it, and never forced to go against my reason. I've openly admitted my doubt to the minister - he said he thought it was a good thing, since it showed I was thinking and not blindly accepting what I was being told.
I might be able to doubt god, but I can't doubt the love and support of my church; denying it would only hurt the people around me and myself. If they are willing to accept my doubt, I'm willing to accept their faith.
Shekhinah. You kept referring to the Creator as She, confused me a bit.
Now, I see no problem with Omnipotent/Omniscient Creator because that would mean that WE are in the wrong in our thoughts, and not Him. That is to say, our prayer is null, our want is null, our desires are null. Thus leaving only ONE will and that is His. There is no intercession. Just Divine Will. What I am typing does not come from me, neither the words I say, nor the words I speak. The thoughts are not my own. Prayer is a humbling act. There should be no desire except want of return.
The best way to live is to live as if you are in control. No use in just sitting around. However, no one living is ever in control.
17 May 2008, 2:29 am
oscuria wrote:
Bismillah is a prayer/supplication, at least from what I understand. It is also an acknowledgment. What do you mean by making a false statement?
I meant to ask whether you believe that a statement like "Allah is merciful," is false because, if it is true, then I guess I don't see how "merciful" is not an attribute. It wouldn't have to be a complete description to be one attribute.
oscuria wrote:
I understand the last part. It's a tricky situation, being that it is either describable/with attributes or indescribable/no attributes. The latter just doesn't specify.
I'd even go as far as to say the latter description is self-contradictory given that it's, well, a description.
oscuria wrote:
Myself, I don't like giving attributes and titles because it seems like idolatry. I'd rather just say "He Is." Usually the person will understand this. There is really nothing more that I can add. He is Everything and Nothing.
Most of the people I've told that to don't like the response though.
Most of the people I've told that to don't like the response though.
Well, I'd guess that it's because the term "Everything and Nothing" seems contradictory. I know that it can be interpreted in coherent ways (if you mean the two words in a different sense), but even then it's ambiguous (if poetic). My guess would be that you mean all things are a part of Allah, but that Allah is not limited to any given thing?
17 May 2008, 2:36 am
oscuria wrote:
The best way to live is to live as if you are in control. No use in just sitting around. However, no one living is ever in control.
You sound like a practical determinist. I consider myself one too (though my specific type of determinism, and my reason for it are almost certainly different) in a sense.
I once knew a girl who was, on the contrary, a fatalist. She wouldn't wear a seatbelt because she believed all things were pre-determined anyway. I couldn't convince her that "fate" seemed to favor the prepared (clearly she didn't believe in causal determinism).
17 May 2008, 2:43 am
Escuerd wrote:
oscuria wrote:
Bismillah is a prayer/supplication, at least from what I understand. It is also an acknowledgment. What do you mean by making a false statement?
I meant to ask whether you believe that a statement like "Allah is merciful," is false because, if it is true, then I guess I don't see how "merciful" is not an attribute. It wouldn't have to be a complete description to be one attribute.
oscuria wrote:
I understand the last part. It's a tricky situation, being that it is either describable/with attributes or indescribable/no attributes. The latter just doesn't specify.
I'd even go as far as to say the latter description is self-contradictory given that it's, well, a description.
oscuria wrote:
Myself, I don't like giving attributes and titles because it seems like idolatry. I'd rather just say "He Is." Usually the person will understand this. There is really nothing more that I can add. He is Everything and Nothing.
Most of the people I've told that to don't like the response though.
Most of the people I've told that to don't like the response though.
Well, I'd guess that it's because the term "Everything and Nothing" seems contradictory. I know that it can be interpreted in coherent ways (if you mean the two words in a different sense), but even then it's ambiguous (if poetic). My guess would be that you mean all things are a part of Allah, but that Allah is not limited to any given thing?
I am not going to explain Islam as that isn't my religion. I know about Islam but certainly not enough to be considered expert. I love Islam, but it is not for me.
Personally, I don't see a problem with saying "The Lord is merciful, He is benevolent" etc. But that is a limitation. If He is to be given attributes, then what of His judging? What of His punishments? If He is to be given attributes, then as a Creator He is Everything.
There will always be contradictions. How can there not be? Saying "He is Love" is contradictory to the eyes. I prefer to look upon Him as without attributes. In doing so I keep myself from humanizing Him. And yes.
And yes I do adhere to determinism.
17 May 2008, 2:56 am
17 May 2008, 3:29 am
17 May 2008, 4:46 am
17 May 2008, 9:51 am
CityAsylum wrote:
Fred2670 wrote:
You cant continue to create threads like these
and maintain any hope of getting into heaven..
and maintain any hope of getting into heaven..
Yeah, that's kind of the belief held by the repressed idiots who flew planes into the World Trade Towers - they did it because they were told they would get into heaven and be able to scr*w virgins if they killed all of us infidels in NYC.
Afterwards Osama bin Laden laughed at them for falling for it - religion is just a powertool for him, and many other jerks who tell others how to behave, in the name of God. Personally, I'd prefer to see people getting laid on Earth, and not running around killing innocent people so that they can get some action in the afterlife. Religions have the potential to derange dimwits, and then just look at what they do.
I respect people who wish to observe their own religions, but they need to keep their noses out of everybody else's business - that means respecting people's rights to post threads like this, even if you choose to believe that it will keep them out of heaven.
A M E N
17 May 2008, 10:36 am
iamnotaparakeet
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Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 39
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17 May 2008, 11:22 am
17 May 2008, 11:31 am
iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius
17 May 2008, 11:34 am
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