Pro or anti abortion?

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02 Sep 2008, 4:25 pm

Pro-choice here, but my god that doesn't mean I encourage or think aboration is right, I'm just pro-"choice". No woman should be forced to be pregnant, what is she was raped. And what if she isnt a fit parent and is too foolish to go through with adoption?

Age1600
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02 Sep 2008, 4:29 pm

The_Cucumber wrote:

I am against abortion unless it is medically necessary to save the life of the mother. If a mother doesn't feel ready or capable to raise a child then adoption agencies exist specifically for that purpose. Heck, in my state the laws allow any mother to leave a baby at any government building, no questions asked. I'm on the fence about allowing abortions in cases where the child has zero chances of living past early childhood and will be in extreme pain otherwise. However I feel that if this is permitted doctor assisted suicide should also be allowed in adults who have nothing left to live but a slow and painful death.

To me it's not a moral issue it is simply extending legal rights to the unborn.

Your telling me if the mother might die if this baby doesnt come out that its smarter to use the device to shove up the woman and kill the baby and possibly worsen the mothers condition then rather inducing her into labor or via c section where it doesnt kill the baby and still can save the mother. Do you know a good 80% of women who do abortions suffer serious psychological problems on top of the problems that may occur from the physical doings of the actual abortion. I know a girl who had 2 abortions didnt seem to care, until when it was time to have a baby, she couldnt, and she ended up getting serious PTSD that she ended up needing to be hospitalized for almost a month where she almost took her life. Then became a drug addict, hospitalized some more. Now that same girl who wants to adopt to have a child, the adoption agencies were given her crap on her previous psychological issues, and afraid she wont be suited to be a mother. Last time i heard she was back to her old habits of using drugs. I agree ppl need choice on how to live their life, but murder shouldnt be apart of that.

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Age1600
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02 Sep 2008, 4:31 pm

ChristinaCSB wrote:

my mother was raped and yet still had me. There are tons of organizations that you can just drop the baby off and nobody will know ur name, ur backround, nothing, jsut so that child can have a decent healthy life. no child should be forced to be killed just because that woman made a dumb decision, or because that woman fell into some bad terms, or got sick, its not the childs fault!

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Age1600
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02 Sep 2008, 4:33 pm

by the way i just realized im getting very arguementive, and coming across as nasty, i'm sorry if i offended or hurt anybody or made anybody feel uncomfortable or like their opinion is wrong. Everybody has their right to their own opinion and choice, i have nothing against that, and i do apologize as coming across as an A-hole, sorry :oops: !

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ChristinaCSB
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02 Sep 2008, 4:34 pm

Well I personally would never do it, and I'm sorry to hear about your mom and I'm glad you are you. I just think sometimes it wasn't meant to be.

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02 Sep 2008, 4:35 pm

ChristinaCSB wrote:

Well I personally would never do it, and I'm sorry to hear about your mom and I'm glad you are you. I just think sometimes it wasn't meant to be.

I understand, and im sorry if i came across as rude or nasty, u r very entitled to your opinion, and thank you.

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cybershooter
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02 Sep 2008, 4:43 pm

Age1600 wrote:

Heres a little cartoon pic of my opinion on abortions
...

Now this is disgusting, but this is actual babies who have been aborted!
...

This is a pic of the stage of what the baby looks like in the womb, and how far that baby is human when the child is usually aborted
...

Yes crazy i know, I have more pix i gotta find them though, i think they may be on my old computer. Anyways i did so much research into abortions that it can scare ya, and found out some scary stuff thatll make anybody change their minds, so yes im very knowledgable in this subject and its funny because most subjects im as knowledgable as a 5year old, go figure lool.

Thank you for a...er...lesson in developmental biology. Actually, I don't find anything 'disgusting' about pictures of aborted foetuses: that's pretty much what they look like inside the womb. It is an unfortunate fact of life that abortions are a necessary evil. It is important not to get so emotionally upset by it that you lose the ability to think rationally: passing judgement on the utility of abortions just because you can't bear to look at pictures you perceive as unpleasant is incredibly silly. Any person in office with the power to decide on the legality of abortion would be behaving extremely irresponsibly if they let their emotions get in the way of deciding what's best for the parties involved.

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02 Sep 2008, 4:59 pm

Age1600 wrote:

ChristinaCSB wrote:

In the case of abortion, it's arguable is there even is a child.

Making a personal moral decision about abortion is one thing. Imposing your subjective morality and views on others is different thing entirely.

Coercion and force are used whenever anything is banned/made illegal. Where do we draw the line in controlling people and their lives? Whose morality are we to impose if we choose to draw lines based on subjective views about morality?

Some people think it is immoral to wear certain kinds of clothes or to fail to wear other certain kinds of clothes. Should their moral standards be imposed on you via the state's monopoly on the legitimate use of force?

There are people who think that if you suffer a disorder that cannot be demonstrated to be non-genetic, that you should be prevented from reproducing, and forced abortion should be applied to obtain this result where necessary. There are people who think more than replacement reproduction (or some lesser rate of reproduction) is the only moral choice, and prevention of greater rates of reproduction should include forced abortion where necessary. I've even encountered people who thinking breeding and parenting should be both require licenses and abortions should be employed as necessary to prevent unlicensed birth. Should any of the persons described have a right to impose their subjective moral opinions on you?

We can easily justify laws that prevent activities that would harm other right bearing entities. But when it comes to a law that would circumvent basic, pervasive rights (right to make decisions about one's own body, right to make decisions about medical intervention) where there is no competing right, on the basis of peoples' moral views, it seems difficult to derive a principal based argument that supports this without positing principals that risk opening the door to "tyranny of the moral majority".

Last edited by pandd on 02 Sep 2008, 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

claire-333
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02 Sep 2008, 5:02 pm

Thank you, dear.

Last edited by claire-333 on 02 Sep 2008, 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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02 Sep 2008, 5:07 pm

Age1600, I am extremely fond of you but those photos made me sick. That was a bit much. You have every right to feel the way you do about this, and thats fine that you needed to bring out a point but.. again too much

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02 Sep 2008, 5:20 pm

Age1600 wrote:

You're not coming across as an A-hole Age1600. I think we can all see you feel strongly, and that's certainly better than being apathetic.

I do feel that you might want to consider editing the photos out of your earlier post. Perhaps consider that it is not necessarily appropriate in the general section; (for instance might parents be offended if their children viewed the images unwarned and without parental guidance?)

Other than the photos, I personally do not see anything wrong with what you've posted. You have a strong view about this issue, but you do not seem to be making personal attacks or rude/impolite comments (that I can see).

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02 Sep 2008, 5:57 pm

personally I feel too much information is better than none. Better to put the pill on the night table for your 15 year old daughter than she coming home with an unwanted preganncy.
Another idea would be to have vasectomy at age 12 for boys and reconnetc the tubes when they are mature enough to knwo whether they want a baby and if they will be responsible as a father. so let them toy around with sex and no harm will be done. Enough experience will do the rest to turn hsi girlfriend later into a happy woman.

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02 Sep 2008, 5:58 pm

Thank you for removing the pics. =)

Age1600 wrote:

ChristinaCSB wrote:

It's admirable that your mother was mentally strong enough to have you despite being raped, but not all women would be mentally capable of dealing with that until term. But in all these cases you mentioned the fetus is being considered more important than the women who has been alive for over a decade at least, and I find that morally wrong. To force the women to have the child which will probably affect her negatively for the rest of her life (for whatever reason) is unfair. Why force children to be born into circumstances where they won't recieve optimum care, and the mother's options for the rest of her life will often become much slimmer? And how do you know that if you leave your child for adoption that it's going to have a decent and healthy life? I would feel that I made the worse decision by putting a child up for adoption than getting an abortion because while I stopped a bunch of cells from growing in abortion, I've put a living child into unknown circumstances where I would have no control on whether or not he or she was okay in adoption.

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02 Sep 2008, 6:12 pm

Age1600 wrote:

intense wrote:

Age1600 wrote:

intense wrote:

what if it was discovered early on that the child has a painful degenerative disease and would have a VERY POOR quality of life - everyday would mean extreme suffering how would you feel then?

I only ask as sadly these are the kind of decisions some poor people have to make in real life.

None of the pro life people here have answered my question - I wonder why? It is an uncomfortable one isn't it, but some people are sadly forced to make decisions like the one I mentioned above.

Things aren't black and white there are shades of grey, so I ask again if your baby was going to be born with a degenerative disease which causes terrible pain and suffering for a very extended period after it’s birth would you still decide to continue with the pregnancy or not.

I personally would have to think of the child first and if it was only going to suffer for the short time it was going to live for than I would be forced to at least consider a termination, what right have I to let such suffering continue when I could have prevented it.
No matter what my feelings are about the sanctity of life I would have real trouble with the suffering it would cause to go through with the birth of a child that would experience nothing but pain and utter misery.

I know a family who had a baby found out in the womb that the baby may have this weird disorder that affects the way the baby feels pain, even though, the mother still had the baby, instead found out the baby had a disorder that stops the child from feeling any pain at all! So everybody thinks what a great thing that is, no it isnt, in fact the little girl chewed off her hand, she didnt feel it, poked her eye until she was blind, if she fell and broke her leg nobody would know, the mother had to assume that something was wrong, she wasnt getting any signals that it was hurtin her so it didnt matter to her, now that mother tells ppl everywhere that be lucky you feel pain! Now that mother knew her baby was going to be born with this or soemthing related to this but still gave that baby a chance! You have no idea what people are capable of, how even sometimes children who have the worst diseases, disorders in the world who end up being the best advocate and changing this world. Like the baby born with mermaid syndrome, the mother still had her, yet now shes worldwide known, and they had several operations so she could walk, now shes doing amazing. Doctors told my one friend her baby was going to have spinabifida, that you abort it if u wanted to, well she didnt, guess what, the baby didnt have spinabifida! Doctors dont always know much at all. Also what about the actor who has down syndrome, goes to show you that he didnt let his disability stop him, or the people with down syndrome getting married, what about those? Nobody talks about the amazing people out there who despite their disabilities are changing this world as we know it! Nobody knows for sure what their aborting at all, and nobody knows what that child who was aborted could have been, or where they would end up! There are tons of agencies you can just give that baby up to without even letting them know, tons, i use to help out one, open door pregancy center i think it was called, where they got donations and help so people who dont want children can give up their child without all this paper work or ppl knowing their an unfit mother, and give this child a chance to live life. Don't you think everybody should have the chance to live, jsut because one person says this child will suffer, how the heck do you know how that child is going to handle its life, how do you not know that child will rise above it and prove everybody wrong. Nobody can make that decision, that child should have a right to live, right to make their decisions in life.

well that's a great story but unfortunately it isn't allways the case.

What other cases are you refering too then? what about people who abuse the abortion privaleges and just kill babies left and right because they dont bother to use birth control, and dont want a baby, but love the sex, and since abortion is legal, why not jsut abort every child you get pregnant with, thats what many girls think! While many families are desperate to even have a child, my mother was one of them, she found out she couldnt have children, and lost it, took her years just to be able to adopt, had to go through many different tests to find out if their even qualified, yet some parents just can have them whenever they want and abort them also while some are fighting, desperately to even own a child! My mother flew 3 times to colombia, south america to adopt 3 different children while a lot of women are aborting them left and right, some people are actually fighting doing the impossible, speanding tons of money just to be able to say they have a child, i dont think thats fair at all! Yes you hear how the kid needs to get out of the mother, can kill the mother, but usually the best technique is inducing labor and if that child doesnt make it, thats a different story, but if they did do abortion it can cause more serious complications to the woman then anything.

Why would people want to abuse the abortion system? Why would they want to literally pay every time they accidentally get pregnant? I don't know how much they cost but isn't it expensive? I don't see why people would decide to refuse birth control because abortions are optional. Why keep paying every time if condoms are cheaper?

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02 Sep 2008, 6:19 pm

as I suggested, cut those tubes either the boy's or the girl's just as cricumcision is an American routine, this could become routine too

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02 Sep 2008, 6:34 pm

Loborojo wrote:

as I suggested, cut those tubes either the boy's or the girl's just as cricumcision is an American routine, this could become routine too

I would assume (hope) you are being sarcastic here.

Such surgery is risky of itself, given that it IS surgery, and for women almost never reversible, and for men not always reversible.

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