attempt to understand

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It is not an attempt to change my beliefs, more address questions that have been laid unanswered for too long. In addition to which, my relationship with my partner is fine as it is, this is not soemthing that he has demanded of me, nor is it something he has even asked of me; it is simply thoughts and issues that have naturally been brought to the forefront of my mind by my association with him and seeing how he has tackled with issues that I chose to ignore.

I feel you have just divided the humans from the my question about the universe. I suppose that is fair; you dont have to consider them one purpose. So why a human project? Why fill in the void with anything? Religion has seemingly has nothing to say about this. This is what I am asking. This is why I cannot see religion being about the why when this is not addressed.

For me its where a couple things met - internal proclivities (how I feel and percieve the world and myself) and where when I tried to eject, stamp out, destroy those feelings in belief that they were false - going by the logic presented at that point life started making even less and less sense, particularly with the red tape and confines that life is so full of, the hard-wired irrationality in human nature, sometimes sweeping social currents of stupidity that seems like they'd need almost a little extra to catch the kind of flash point needed to have such an idea catch on as a staple in society. Some trends, movements of life, seem so irrational and completely divorced from anything evolutionarily worthwhile that you realize that if you try to just think of us as more complex animals isn't adequate enough to say its 100% of what is us or what the universe really is.

According to the theology, humanity holds a special place in the world order, being the dominant species. Add the fact that, again, only according to the theology, human beings are the creatures with souls, which is what separates them from other animals, and God had a special purpose in mind for humanity...

So why are humans special? Why make humans?

What is this "theology" that holds all the answers? Even if a hugely superior being actually spoke to humans and told them some cock and bull story about their superior worth, why is this believable? Would you be ethically constrained to not lie to a bedbug if you wanted to amuse yourself to see what it would do?

STOP DERAILLING MY POST!

ETA: I have put myelf completely on the line in this post, and I am trying to search out something important to me. As such, having people come along and derail it to the tune of 3.5 pages is not something I am in any way happy with. Please, just stop it! At least have some respect for that!

According to Christianity, God is love, but without creating anything, he wouldn't have had anyone to love (besides himself). So he made humanity, in order to have an object for love.

This is your original post:

I am looking for someone who is religious, any religion, but preferably Christian (denomination is also unimportant for my thoughts) to try and help me understand a little bit more about it

Mostly I guess I am wondering "Why?" Why do you find comfort in it? Why do you choose to follow it? Why does it have an affect on your life?

Any responce, or any discussion, would be appreciated.


There have been comments by many people, some Christian, some not. This is an open discussion group and when comments are made here there is no way you can prevent them being confronted and questioned. That's the nature of the site. Perhaps you can glean from the various comments what you requested. Your final request was for any response, any discussion. Don't complain when you get it.

question of relevance.. and to be honest, you sound a hell of alot like the teenagers i work with that honestly think they know more than the people around thm, cos they can set up arguements like these... so, tell me how old you are? hmmm? i am guessing that you are a whole lot older than 14, yet you sound exactly like a 14 year old. believe me on that.

Now, if we can get back to the RELEVANT topics that are what i am looking for, kthxbai, no love, me

Getting involved in personalities is not looked well upon in this forum. I am pretty good at insults but it is not a skill indulged in here. I would rather get involved in the discussion of comments and not what my opinion of your capability for judging individuals might be. Perhaps I might be excused in being entirely puzzled as to what your reference to kthxbai might imply but it does not bode well for my estimation of your maturity.

So... back to the relevant on-topic discussion...
after seeing my testimony above, is there anyone who can give any information that is pertinent to what i am looking for?

I want to see how people view their religion (not how others view their religion), and how it affects them on a day to day basis; or even beyond day to day. In essence, i am seeking knowledge to help my own questions, and not information in how to further ignore them; after 11 years of ignorance, i am questing for some enlightenment

What your going to find is that - in truth - the overwhelming number of people; atheist, theist, deist, are all really agnostic. They all put forward their own qualitative analysis on this, do so from the facts that they have, and on various levels admit to what they do or don't have.

My own take on it is this - the world is a double entente. Everything that seems mundane, completely dry of anything supernatural; mainly the bulk of everything you'll see in your life, bares that appearance as we're looking at it up close from a very limited perspective. The world is what it looks like in a lot of senses, miracles in the sense that people may think of likely rarely if ever do happen; but that's not what it takes either. However, its in taking the perspective that what you may see as the spiritual, the metaphysical, exists in other capacities and wavelengths, as in you could take the natural world as we know it and say that reality is much more cavernous, much more leviathan, in its scope and size - the world we see is likely just the tip of the iceberg.

That said, I'll also admit that at my core, naturally there's something in me that bends me in the direction to where I would believe in a God. While I don't see it as proof in and of itself, I know that I'm in a situation to where having faith works far better for me whereas when I abandon it I don't just own the consequences for my actions - I start owning everything that limits me, everything that anyone else can do better than me, every shortcoming that I'm genetically bricked into, and from that standpoint I know how to give myself absolutely no peace. There is a lot that frankly anyone would rip themselves to pieces over if they put it on themselves that the only validation of their internal world or existence is what effect they can have on their own lives and how well they can get their identity across to others. Faith in God is largely something that acts as a stabilizer. As a Christian leaning agnostic (as so many are) you can look at prayer in one of two ways - ie. you are talking to God or, you may be but as long as your using affirmational prayers and using it such as asking for inner peace, poise, strength, true God may be answering it but by the way human biology works it can work just as well without a God - not a problem if it works either way and if taking the assumption that you are praying is part of the task.

When I speak of the duality or double entente of our world though, that's a good example - ie. that believing fills many with peace, hope, happiness, to where it would be much more of a challenge to cough up these things in the absence of such a belief. The very fact that belief can have that effect and do so in such a stable manner, be such a plus to one's emotional health as well as being a huge box of tools in their set of coping skills in life (again, when used properly) - the little things like that can almost beckon the question of 'If God exists, is this how he chooses to work? Laying small details, paths, etc. within the construct of the natural world, within the construct of us, and he's done this so well that he doesn't need to do anything flamboyant within his own creation to rubber stamp his existence?'.

That last part is why it also worries me when theists do take on the idea of using unsolved scientific mysteries in their faith - so far science can explain them all without God, so lets just take the assumption that science will one day be able to explain any straw that today's strong-arm theist might grab at; its an unhealthy temptation because a). God's existence cannot be contradicted by science anyway if you go by the assumption that he created what science is probing to begin with and b). for people who aren't fans of strident variants of atheism; people using 'God of the gaps' arguments just end up impugning their reputation and the reputation of theists in the end. Really everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, if they wish to organize for the sake of community that's more than fine as well and completely understandable. Our society does have rules, ie. we're not fans or murder, hostile takeover, we have certain inherent codes of decency so yes - a religion that would encourage debauchery in the middle of a busy street would have pressure against it from all sides (especially people who drive to work that way!) but you get the idea - *within reason*.

One thing that I at least can say for my own beliefs though - they're useful to my being my best self, their useful to my sense of well being, and the thought that I could be wrong and that there's nothing hereafter doesn't really bother me as I'm far more worried about 50 years of personal hell on this earth and what I can do to sort out my own emotions, direct them in healthy ways; faith isn't everyone's answer to this but for more than enough people out there its the best answer available.

Firstly, the OP asked for religious viewpoints on why we follow religion. Hence my speaking from where I was back when I was religious, not necessarily why I do not follow religion now.

Saying again; My church itself was very liberal, peace-loving, God-loves-everyone, etc. It's the bible itself that contains the very different message such as gays and foreigners and women are lesser/devalued people. As a child, the way my child-mind worked, if we say the bible is holy. Not just select parts of it, but all of it. So why do we not read/teach all of it? I read the unread/untaught parts for myself. To use one bit as an example:

1Timothy 2:12: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
This says one of 4 things about the Christian god:

1) God indeed feels this way about women.

2) God used to feel this way about women but does not anymore.

3) God never felt this way about women.

4) The bible is not inspired by/does not speak for God and/or God does not exist.

In my child mind:

If 1) Then what God wants directly contradicts my church's and my personal moral code, and by not following what God wants we are not really believing in him and/or truly worshiping him.

If 2) Then God is not perfect (or he wouldn't have made a wrong value judgement to begin with) and we can no longer take "because it's in the bible" as an automatic given for divine doctrine. We/God clearly do not accept everything in the bible as divine will. How then do we decide which passages to follow and which to ignore?

If 3) Then again the bible does not speak for for God, in which case why do we call it holy and the absolute word of God?

If 4) Then why follow Christianity if its god is not real/not THE real god?

Back to the OP: Why then did I continue to follow the religion? For the reasons stated in my first response. Mostly, out of fear of alienation from friends and family and because Christianity is the hip thing to do and I wanted to 'fit in.' Although while I was in it, I never in a million years would have admitted to that. If asked I would have said trying to confirm belief to myself as well as who I'm speaking with, while internally fighting the heated objections of my logical voice, that I follow my religion because I truly believe.

Another element of why I found comfort in religion: Control over my world.

E.g.; I'm currently in a race against the clock to get the money to get my roof fixed before it rains again. If rain is purely an innocuous, natural occurrence which you and I can't control, then I am truly in the hands of fate.

But if rain is caused/affected by a sentient entity, then I can pray to that entity to please not rain until my roof is repaired. However indirectly, I get to feel I have a degree of control over my universe.

If indeed it does not rain, I can use that as further 'evidence' that this sentient entity does indeed exist. "I prayed for no rain and it didn't rain. God listened to me, God favors me, how cool am I that God does what I want?"

And who doesn't want to feel they have a degree of control over the universe? Who doesn't want to feel that a super-powerful something does what we ask it to do?

gays -- There was no such concept in those times. It is debatable (and hotly debated) whether homosexuality is actually condemned or not.

foreigners -- Curious as to where you got this. It actually says exactly the opposite. (Exodus 22:21 and 23:9, for example)

women -- It doesn't devalue them. It does reflect the time in which it was written, but I don't see any general devaluing tone.


I don't look at it as all equally inspired, but even for someone who does, some bits are obviously more valuable than others. The sermon on the mount is much more interesting and valuable than the details of what kind of tassels to put on garments.


This seems to reflect the idea that God directly wrote every word of the bible himself. The "I" in that verse is Paul (assuming Paul actually wrote 1 Timothy, which is debated).

Paul might have been instituting a specific local rule to prevent some specific problem.

The arguments against Paul having written this letter seem pretty good to me.