Moderate Religion

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cognito
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21 May 2009, 11:35 pm

Orwell wrote:

Ancalagon wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:

Fundies are obviously bad for society,

This is not at all obvious to me. I agree with you and Orwell that they are wrong about a great many things, but that is not the same thing at all.

Have you ever even met any fundamentalists? All 4 of my grandparents were Southern Baptist, as well as very nice people. If society were made up of people like them, it would be an improvement.

One of my best friends is a fundamentalist. I think his theological views are the height of idiocy, but he's a great guy. Very kind, polite and friendly to everyone, good work ethic, good morals, etc. And he's pretty smart outside the realm of theology.

I have to disagree, take former president Bush Jr. He was a fundie and used his beliefs to hold back science, start 2 wars, turn a $200 million into a $9 trillion deficit, destroy america's image abroad, destroy the enivorment, helped the economy collapse, dropped the ball on Katrinia and the list goes on. 1 fundie in a position of power is bad for society.

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Orwell
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22 May 2009, 12:05 am

cognito wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Ancalagon wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:

Fundies are obviously bad for society,

And how much of that was due to his fundamentalist beliefs? Just the holding back science bit. The rest of it was just because Bush himself was a moron, and he would have been an idiot no matter what religion he followed. You're laying blame where it doesn't belong. It's not fair to say that every bad thing a fundie does is motivated by fundamentalism. Similarly, it would be unfair to say that every bad thing any atheist has ever done is because of their atheism, and use that as a basis to try to ban atheism.

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Sand
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22 May 2009, 1:59 am

Orwell wrote:

cognito wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Ancalagon wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:

Fundies are obviously bad for society,

Aside from indulging in the brutalities formal religion has done throughout history and which is current in many Muslim countries, how do you enforce belief in the supernatural? You can enforce the belief in official brutality but nothing else.

joetherocket
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22 May 2009, 2:23 am

Sand wrote:

Orwell wrote:

cognito wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Ancalagon wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:

Fundies are obviously bad for society,

It is true what you say that all you can do is enforce the belief in brutality, no doubt. That being said, how many millions have died from an athiest country persecuting people just due to their hatred of religion? The USSR, China (particularly under Mao), Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge are responsible for many sensless deaths (I am an atheist by the way). Besides, imperialism has killed quite a few million under some humanitarian guises where the propaganda didn't usually involve religion. At least in BC when pagans ruled the earth they were semi honest about why they killed millions, it was to establish rule, there was not much humanitarian or idealistic mask behind it (though many did use a divine birthright to justify). I don't think relgion is the issue as much as it is forcing the centralization and conformity of ideas and power.

scorpileo
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22 May 2009, 3:21 am

when you sat moderate you mean average? i think every one should be left alone to belive what they want aslong they don't directly harm people.

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vibratetogether
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23 May 2009, 4:01 pm

In a weird twisted way, I actually have more respect for fundamentalists than I do for "moderate" theists.

Fundamentalists believe what they believe and make no concessions. They are forthright an unapologetic.

Moderates exist in a no-man's land of theological uncertainty. They attempt to make religion work for them, as opposed to changing their ways to reflect the dogma they claim to believe in.

While I would say fundamentalists are intellectually absurd, moderates are intellectually weak.

ruveyn
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23 May 2009, 4:14 pm

vibratetogether wrote:

While I would say fundamentalists are intellectually absurd, moderates are intellectually weak.

There is little if any absolute certainty for humans except, perhaps, death. You find that adjusting to less than perfect information and the inherent uncertainty of our observations is weak?

ruveyn

vibratetogether
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23 May 2009, 4:19 pm

ruveyn wrote:

vibratetogether wrote:

While I would say fundamentalists are intellectually absurd, moderates are intellectually weak.

There is little if any absolute certainty for humans except, perhaps, death. You find that adjusting to less than perfect information and the inherent uncertainty of our observations is weak?

ruveyn

I suppose it's in how you "adjust". In my case, I accept there are many things I do not and can not know. For this reason I am agnostic. Others try and find some truth in the intangible, and for the simple fact that they cannot do so, their conclusions are ridiculous, and as such, the process that led them from uncertainty to flawed certainty is absolutely weak.

MissConstrue
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23 May 2009, 4:27 pm

scorpileo wrote:

when you sat moderate you mean average? i think every one should be left alone to belive what they want aslong they don't directly harm people.

This.

I don't think people should be persecuted for their beliefs as long as it's not intruding on other people's rights. IMO, persecution can come in many forms including non-belief. Hey if that person wants to pray to a religious god or their own higher power, that's their right.

I will say I'm not happy with how the U.S. has handled their promise to seperate religion from state. Looks to me like there's a lot of religion involved in personal freedoms.

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Awesomelyglorious
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23 May 2009, 4:31 pm

cognito wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Ancalagon wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:

Fundies are obviously bad for society,

Well, actually Bush is not really a fundie as best I can tell. He is not a Bible inerrantist, he thinks that evolution can be compatible with creation and considers evolution to be proven, and he thinks that his religion can encompass people outside of those who express the same beliefs as his own(aka he's a pluralist), all of which are relatively non-fundamentalist beliefs.

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Politic ... 361&page=2

So, really, Bush is just a politician. One who makes bad choices.

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23 May 2009, 4:37 pm

vibratetogether wrote:

It depends upon what we call "moderate".

Often this is taken as a term in opposition to conservative fundamentalism, but more moderate views on the relationship of science to Genesis have existed since Augustine, and the rest depends upon what updatings we end up considering. Some are against the original understanding and in a manner hard to justify, others exploit genuine variations found in the history of the religion, and rationalizations of the theological text.

ed
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23 May 2009, 5:18 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

My own opinion is that he's not religious at all, except as a prop to help himself get elected.

Orwell
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23 May 2009, 7:26 pm

vibratetogether wrote:

And this is why I object to the terms "moderate" and "fundamentalist." I don't believe they are an accurate description of the differences between myself and right-wing nutters. I consider my beliefs to be more in line with a correct reading of the Bible.

Like I explained to a fundie friend of mine when we were arguing about some OT concept: it's not that I'm picking and choosing parts of the Bible to accept or reject. It's that I think fundies have interpreted it completely incorrectly, and have also come out with a terribly warped sense of priority. For example, being anti-gay should never be a cornerstone of the Christian religion. Even if homosexuality is sin (which is debatable, as plenty of things prohibited in Leviticus are not considered sinful in Christianity) we can look at Jesus's actions and words in the NT and see clearly that Christians should not be in the business of passing judgment on anyone.

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