Unconditional Love

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claire-333
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23 May 2009, 12:01 am

gwenevyn wrote:

Here, too, it depends on what "love" means. In the case of my worst relationship, I never admired the man much. I cared about his welfare and felt tenderly toward him at first, but those tender feelings vanished when I came to know him as he truly is and he tried to destroy everything I care about. I've honestly at some points grappled with whether or not I believe he deserves to live. I can't say with certainty that I wouldn't be glad if the opportunity to kill him in self-defense someday presents itself. I think I would not, but I can't be sure. I would definitely be relieved if I learned he were dead. I have compassion for the innocent little boy he once was, and sorrow over everything that was done to him to make him the way he is. But I feel only disgust for what he is now.

Thank you for sharing this. If you can say you honestly once loved him but now you wish him dead, then I will admit I am wrong.

Magnus
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23 May 2009, 12:06 am

tech wrote:

Quote:

Unconditional love is something that's ok for children but really not something adults should even want to aim for (maybe from themselves, or a pet, that's it though) because there are far too many practical problems with the concept and, idealism when it comes down to it usually makes idealists far more unhappy than pragmatism does pragmatists.

Just because something is easier doesn't necessarily mean it is more right. Unconditional love is not needy and so if you love someone this way and they are not good for you, then you can let them go. It's not about clinging onto something that you want them to be. It's more like you love their soul and want what is best for them. If you love yourself unconditionally, it is very easy to let go of a loved one that brings harm into the relationship.

Realistically, people outgrow situations such as in the case with children. Parents shouldn't stop loving their children because they cease to be their previous innocent selves, right? They let go and allow them to be who they strive to be ideally without placing expectations of how they wish their child to behave.

It may seem like it's too reckless but it's not. Once you place conditions on your love, you use it as a tool to keep that person the way you want him/her to be. All those things that person is, is not lasting though. Besides, the person eventually will resent having limitations placed on receiving love because no one likes to be manipulated and controlled.

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claire-333
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23 May 2009, 12:10 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

But how is love defined in that sense then? Shared memories? Remembering what you had with the person but no longer have?

How is love defined in any sense? I do not know. I know it is possible to love someone and not like them. Sometimes one has to decide they are a better person without someone in their life. This does not mean they no longer love, or wish them ill will, or cannot be called upon in times of need.

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

It seems like our society's definition of love (properly thought out love at least) is at its core a social contract rather than the feelings that accompany it as the feelings are transient. That contract though can lead to two people greatly enhancing and complimenting each others' lives. Its something that, at least in the relationship sense starts with what some might choose to call limmerance, sexual attraction, infatuation, but that seems to be what's there to start the structure of it rather than keep it going or be its essence. I would imagine that you'll still love a person as a human being if you split up with them (as long as it doesn't go too awry) falling out of love is usually indicative of the person just saying that the contract of husband/wife didn't work out or, they may have sincerely just never untangled love and infatuation conceptually speaking.

I am not sure how to respond to this part. Love and sex have never had a connection to me. Infatuation is what it is. The rest seems to only support what I have been saying.

gwenevyn
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23 May 2009, 12:12 am

claire333 wrote:

Thank you for sharing this. If you can say you honestly once loved him but now you wish him dead, then I will admit I am wrong.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply I think you're mistaken. I really can't say it with certainty. I'd need a very precise definition of love to work with.

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twoshots
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23 May 2009, 12:14 am

Fancy meeting you here, gwenevyn. How ya been?

Re: OP. I'll get back to you. 'Fraid I don't know.

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claire-333
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23 May 2009, 12:15 am

gwenevyn wrote:

claire333 wrote:

Thank you for sharing this. If you can say you honestly once loved him but now you wish him dead, then I will admit I am wrong.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply I think you're mistaken. I really can't say it with certainty. I'd need a very precise definition of love to work with.

No, I did not mean it that way. I just have always asserted that unconditional love is redundant. There is only love. Love cannot have conditions. This is based on my own experience. If it is wrong, then it is wrong. I do not mind being wrong...sometimes

I know of no precice definition of love.

ouinon
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23 May 2009, 12:40 am

Double post!

Last edited by ouinon on 23 May 2009, 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

ouinon
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23 May 2009, 12:44 am

claire333 wrote:

How is love defined in any sense? I do not know.

Love is a label that different people and different cultures apply to many different feelings, which we are conditioned to think of as being on some sort of spectrum.

People use/apply the label to all sorts of feelings, from murderous rage, ( in the case of the "crime de passion" ), to neediness/dependence, addiction, fear, happiness, physical pleasure/comfort, the sense of self-affirmation you get when someone's value judgements match your own, reacting to your child, familiarity, etc etc etc.

We are taught that feelings it is used for/applied to are "important", and "very good", ( though some people, after enough painful experience, will work out that this is not necessarily the case at all ). People learn very early on which feelings to apply the label to, ( this will vary depending on their upbringing, society, etc ), and will tend to seek out/valorise relationships/situations which provoke those sort of feelings.

Did you see my thread "Love and Value Judgements", at: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt98896.html

.

gwenevyn
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23 May 2009, 12:57 am

twoshots wrote:

Fancy meeting you here, gwenevyn. How ya been?

Pretty good! You, too, I hope.

It feels nice to be back on.

Magnus wrote:

It's more like you love their soul and want what is best for them.

But by this definition, don't most of us love pretty much everybody, by varying degrees?

Magnus wrote:

Realistically, people outgrow situations such as in the case with children. Parents shouldn't stop loving their children because they cease to be their previous innocent selves, right? They let go and allow them to be who they strive to be ideally without placing expectations of how they wish their child to behave.

It may seem like it's too reckless but it's not. Once you place conditions on your love, you use it as a tool to keep that person the way you want him/her to be. All those things that person is, is not lasting though. Besides, the person eventually will resent having limitations placed on receiving love because no one likes to be manipulated and controlled.

How does one receive love, I wonder? (Honest musing here, no snarkiness.)

I'm thinking of a hypothetical situation in which, say, your adult child starts engaging in violent, criminal, reckless behavior with no regard for your safety or personal boundaries. You would have to set some limits on your child's contact with you, with your belongings and your home, etc. You might be willing to bail him out financially a few times, but it would be damaging to continue to do it forever. At some point, love would become nothing more than a feeling of hoping for the best for your child, wouldn't it? There would be no way to express that love actively, so that the other person could feel it. Even though the measures you take are for your own protection, I would bet that the adult child would interpret it as punishment and manipulation. In a way, it is manipulative.

Not sure I'm making much sense, since I'm getting very sleepy.... sorry 'bout that.

Anyhow, I very much agree with what you say about people resenting attempts to control their behavior, but I am not so sure that our interactions can truly be free of such attempts.

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claire-333
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23 May 2009, 1:05 am

ouinon wrote:

Love is a label that different people and different cultures apply to many different feelings, which we are conditioned to think of as being on some sort of spectrum.

I cannot say I can relate to the idea of love as a label for different feelings. I only identify love as one emotion. The spectrum would be the depth. The depth of love for my children, spouse, mother, father, are all different...same emotion though. Things like 'I love pickles' or 'I love the beach' are just words. I do not really have this emotion for *things*.

ouinon wrote:

Did you see my thread "Love and Value Judgements", at: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt98896.html

.

I did, but did not follow it through, as it seemed a converstion of semantics and I could not relate for the reasons above.

gwenevyn
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23 May 2009, 1:21 am

Slightly off topic here... Claire, do you happen to be an INFP? (Myers-Briggs)

Please don't feel obliged to answer if you don't want to. I know it's a nosy question. I'm just really interested in how our ways of thinking impact how we discuss certain topics. Some of what you say reminds me of how my INFP partner talks.

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Magnus
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23 May 2009, 1:27 am

gwenevyn,

I said that unconditional love can let go. You wouldn't put up with behavior that is harmful to you. In fact, putting up with behavior like that is bad for everyone as it creates dependency. Some people thrive on having others be dependent on them. There are some sick people out there who are hard to love but you just have to keep forgiving them. If it gets too hard then you have a right to end the relationship. This doesn't mean that you didn't love them unconditionally, it's just that everyone has their limits in how much suffering they can endure.

"Love suffers plenty."

How do you receive love? Selfless acts.

btw, I'm an INFP

claire-333
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23 May 2009, 1:44 am

gwenevyn wrote:

Slightly off topic here... Claire, do you happen to be an INFP? (Myers-Briggs)

Please don't feel obliged to answer if you don't want to. I know it's a nosy question.

I'm just really interested in how our ways of thinking impact how we discuss certain topics. Some of what you say reminds me of how my INFP partner talks.

I think I took it on her once but could not recall. I took it again...

ISTJ
very expressed introvert
moderately expressed sensing personality
distinctively expressed thinking personality
very expressed judging personality

How valid is this? I think I have taken it more than once before. I wish I could remember if I always got the same thing. It seemed like a blunt tool while I was taking it, but have to agree with the profile description...except for a few points. The profile of INFP did not fit.

Edit: I dunno...I read all the profiles and none of them seem to be me. Maybe I just need to get some sleep. I will look at it again when rested.

ouinon
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23 May 2009, 3:26 am

claire333 wrote:

ouinon wrote:

Love is a label that different people and different cultures apply to many different feelings, which we are conditioned to think of as being on some sort of spectrum.

I cannot say I can relate to the idea of love as a label for different feelings. I only identify love as one emotion.

ouinon wrote:

Did you see my thread "Love and Value Judgements", at: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt98896.html

I did, but did not follow it through, as it seemed a conversation of semantics and I could not relate for the reasons above.

It may seem like "mere" semantics if your infancy was such that you learned to associate love with pleasant feelings. But many, in fact most, people learn to associate love, to apply the word/label "love", to feelings of fear, exclusion, neglect, dominance, control/being controlled, dependence/need, submission, being and/or doing the same as someone else, etc.

Because society teaches that "love" is "very good", and "important", people tend to valorise/repeat/seek out those relationships/situations which produce the feelings they associate with "love".

You are lucky if you learned to apply the word/label "love" to "nice"/pleasant feelings; many people don't, and so long as they continue to believe that "love" is a feeling rather than a label for feelings, ( which people apply differently depending on their upbringing and culture ), they will end up in one destructive relationship after another, encouraged by the value judgement, "love", which "says", very powerfully, ( reinforced everywhere by music, films, advertisments, magazines, etc ), that their unpleasant/painful/self-destructive feelings are "good"/"important". This often produces an addictive experience, a "push-pull" pattern of behaviour in relationships, because the feelings are actually painful ones, but society, with all its force, says it is sooooo good!

Far from being a "trivial" question of semantics, it is an analysis which liberates.

.

ouinon
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23 May 2009, 3:40 am

Magnus wrote:

Unconditional love is a term that means to love someone regardless of one's actions or beliefs. Did your parents love you unconditionally? Do you love yourself unconditionally? Have you ever loved anyone unconditionally?

Yes, but what does "love" mean? Love means many many different things to different people. If love is believed to mean matching value judgements, then it is hardly possible for it to be unconditional. If you learned to apply it to feeling fear and awe around someone that too must be conditional. If someone has learned to apply the label "love" to physical pleasure/comfort, that can hardly be unconditional either. Etc, etc, etc.

It doesn't matter, though, because don't even need to use the label to answer the question. :lol:

What sort of feeling could be unconditional? A feeling that experience at any time, in any situations/conditions, towards anyone? I'd say it's in the realm of spiritual enlightenment. A state of being which is not in any way dependent on your circumstances, company, physical state, etc. Total detachment, in the buddhist sense, ... no feeling/emotion, in a way. Acceptance of everything; no judgements, or beliefs, about anything.

.

claire-333
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23 May 2009, 8:17 am

ouinon wrote:

I did not mean to imply it was trivial, but rather based on verbalizing somehting I am unable to define. I did not make it past the first page because I did not agree with your comments about loving things or a child having to work to maintain a mother's love; but how can I argue with someone's definition of love when I do not have one myself. Even if I did, it would seem ass-ish of me to say I know what love is and someone else does not. All I know is what I know and that in no way negates what another knows when it comes to emotions. I have to admit, I did not consider the fact a person can develop a sense of love associated with something negative but again I would not want to argue if that is love...

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