The complete and utter pointlessness of life
28 Jul 2009, 8:31 am
my life is "pointless". it is very well rounded and has no points upon which things snag themselves.
i need no "purpose" to live. my life has no real purpose. it is only an expression of awareness.
i was not alive for eternity before i was born, and i will not be alive for eternity after i die.
but for now, i live at the junction between 2 eternities of non existence.
one may say that it is impossible for there to be 2 eternities, because that implies 2 infinity's, and infinity is all encompassing.
well a "ray" is a line that starts from a point, and it is infinitely long.
another ray that starts at the same point but is headed 180 degrees in the other direction is also infinitely long.
my "blink" of consciousness that exists at the origin of these 2 rays of "eternal non existence" is the center of my being.
it is always "now" no matter when it is, and it is always "here" no matter where i am.
the central origin of my universe is always inside my core of consciousness.
there is infinite distance to the left of me, and infinite distance to the right of me, and infinite distance above me, and infinite distance below me.
therefore i must be in the center of the universe.
i guess the same is true for everyone.
my universe dies when i do.
but i have seen other people die, and the world i see proceeds normally without them.
trucks still pound the highways and everyone goes to work, and people laugh etc as per normal after anyone has died. one persons death is like one dim unnoticed star dying in the heavens. the people on the streets would have no idea and it is not influential on their days proceedings.
that is how i see life and i am happy with it. i do not like to see my animals die because i want them with me all the way on my little consciousness trip.
it is a difficult question for my mind as i am not endowed with "philosophical" talent.
i will just say that while i am alive, i enjoy that i can see, and when i die, i will not know i am not alive and i will not care.
Philosophically I am with you, but since light does not move instantaneously a ray is not infinite.
28 Jul 2009, 9:55 am
i am taking about geometrical "rays" and not "particle beams".
they are infinite without time. rays are infinite as they contain "nothing" that is raised to the 1st dimension.
zero width and zero height = infinite length if it is to be existent in theoretical reality.
whatever i am done with this topic.
there are few topics on this forum that are of interest to me tonight.
Mathematical rays, like Captain Hook and the tooth fairy are useful fictions and not to be construed as existing in our universe.
28 Jul 2009, 10:59 am
Mathematical rays, like Captain Hook and the tooth fairy are useful fictions and not to be construed as existing in our universe.
they are not "rays" made from "mathematics". goodness. they are a necessity for the formation of a local geometric volume.
"lines " are also theoretical, and lines have no origin and they have infinite length and no height or width.
planes are also theoretical, and planes are an infinite amount of parallel lines on an x axis that all have the same y value.
a volume is an infinite amount of planes that have a y value other than or equal to zero.
it is theoretical but it is genetically ingrained to be understood.
i can not see how "captain hook" or the "tooth fairy" are relevant.
maybe the tooth fairy really wants teeth because she is psychotic, and when she sees the child still has not shed it's loose tooth the next night on her visit, she calls in captain hook to remove the tooth that she wants.
you seem like you are an older type of person is that correct? actually i am not really interested anyway.
i am just babbling on and i am going to feed and pet my possums and then go to bed. it is late and i have spent my stock of interest for now.
28 Jul 2009, 11:32 am
Mathematical rays, like Captain Hook and the tooth fairy are useful fictions and not to be construed as existing in our universe.
they are not "rays" made from "mathematics". goodness. they are a necessity for the formation of a local geometric volume.
"lines " are also theoretical, and lines have no origin and they have infinite length and no height or width.
planes are also theoretical, and planes are an infinite amount of parallel lines on an x axis that all have the same y value.
a volume is an infinite amount of planes that have a y value other than or equal to zero.
it is theoretical but it is genetically ingrained to be understood.
i can not see how "captain hook" or the "tooth fairy" are relevant.
maybe the tooth fairy really wants teeth because she is psychotic, and when she sees the child still has not shed it's loose tooth the next night on her visit, she calls in captain hook to remove the tooth that she wants.
you seem like you are an older type of person is that correct? actually i am not really interested anyway.
i am just babbling on and i am going to feed and pet my possums and then go to bed. it is late and i have spent my stock of interest for now.
I am fascinated that mathematics is genetic. You seem not to be able to distinguish ideas from reality. It's the same sickness that bugged Plato so I guess you have precedent. I wonder what my age has to do with it.
28 Jul 2009, 1:02 pm
Mathematical rays, like Captain Hook and the tooth fairy are useful fictions and not to be construed as existing in our universe.
I would call such things as points, lines, rays, vectors -idealizations- rather than fictions. They are faithful abstract renditions of our intuitions which are brain generated processes and images, therefore are quite real. Without idealizations we would not be able to communicate our intuitions person to person.
Fiction is something made up, usually out of whole cloth. Idealizations match our intuitions quite well. They are not arbitrary constructs but flow from the way our brains processes our perceptions.
ruveyn
28 Jul 2009, 1:06 pm
Mathematical rays, like Captain Hook and the tooth fairy are useful fictions and not to be construed as existing in our universe.
I would call such things as points, lines, rays, vectors -idealizations- rather than fictions. They are faithful abstract renditions of our intuitions which are brain generated processes and images, therefore are quite real. Without idealizations we would not be able to communicate our intuitions person to person.
Fiction is something made up, usually out of whole cloth. Idealizations match our intuitions quite well. They are not arbitrary constructs but flow from the way our brains processes our perceptions.
ruveyn
I'm sorry, ruveyn, all abstractions are fictions whether or not they are useful or arbitrary. There is no such thing as a line just as you will not find a long black line running around the equator.
28 Jul 2009, 1:16 pm
I'm sorry, ruveyn, all abstractions are fictions whether or not they are useful or arbitrary. There is no such thing as a line just as you will not find a long black line running around the equator.
To be sure there are no concrete and literal lines in the physical world, but without the idealization of line we would not be able to make blueprints diagrams. Idealizing our perceptions is as inevitable as sunrise. It is the way the human brain works. Every civilization advanced beyond naked savagery has developed idealizations and mathematical concepts. This goes back something like ten thousand years.
It is interesting to note that a famous idealization, Pythagoras Theorem, has occurred in every major civilization, quite independently and first was known well before the time of Pythagoras. Every civilization capable of producing cities/villages and organized warfare has developed the number concept. This is independent of language and race. It is inherent in the human makeup.
It was no accident nor whim that Plato reified ideas. In a certain sense, ideas are more real than the concrete experiences that give rise to them. Here; try this one. You go into a store a buy something for 86 cents. You give the clerk a dollar and before she has touched the cash-register you know you have 14 cents in change coming back. This will happen to everyone, everywhere in the world. It is almost as if 86 and 14 were substantial entities, rather than being, as you put it, useful fictions.
Mathematical relations scream necessity. Literary fictions are just made up out of whole cloth and have not a scintilla of necessity. You cannot conceive of world where the change due back is not 14 cents.
Every mathematician who has ever lived (myself included) is a closet Platonist if not an out right Platonist. No mathematician is going to spend six to ten years of advanced study on material he does not believe is, in some sense, as real as rain.
ruveyn
Last edited by ruveyn on 28 Jul 2009, 1:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
28 Jul 2009, 1:21 pm
I'm sorry, ruveyn, all abstractions are fictions whether or not they are useful or arbitrary. There is no such thing as a line just as you will not find a long black line running around the equator.
To be sure there are no concrete and literal lines in the physical world, but without the idealization of line we would not be able to make blueprints diagrams. Idealizing our perceptions is as inevitable as sunrise. It is the way the human brain works. Every civilization advanced beyond naked savagery has developed idealizations and mathematical concepts. This goes back something like ten thousand years.
It is interesting to note that a famous idealization, Pythagoras Theorem, has occurred in every major civilization, quite independently and first was known well before the time of Pythagoras. Every civilization capable of producing cities/villages and organized warfare has developed the number concept. This is independent of language and race. It is inherent in the human makeup.
ruveyn
I never claimed abstractions had no use. The human mind has a predisposition to create useful abstractions. As probably do other species but not as massively.
28 Jul 2009, 3:02 pm
How bizarre to see my thread resurrected after a year of silence. Seems to be going in interesting directions too. I realise now that I was rather depressed when I wrote the original post, even though I denied it at the time. I still think life is essentially meaningless, but I am rather more accepting of the idea now. When you spend your entire life searching for the meaning of life, the realisation that there isn't one is initially rather depressing. But I'm not going to worry about it anymore. Just live for the little, momentary pleasures in life. Of course this is no consolation if there are no little pleasures, but at the moment I have plenty.
Over the past year of thinking about the nature of consciousness, I have become more aware of how momentary each moment is - how there is no real connection between myself from one day (or even less than that) to the next, apart from the imperfect memories. My feelings have become quite disconnected from outside events and I start to almost feel them for the chemical reactions they are. My decisions seem less and less conscious - even the ones I spend a lot of time making because the choice is not obvious from the given inputs. Gradually my self is disintegrating as I realise I am not a coherent whole, but simply a momentary set of feelings and thoughts which do not last and do not matter and do not need any meaning, but just exist. I've known this for quite a while, but now I can actually feel it and accept it and its fine.
28 Jul 2009, 4:17 pm
Interesting. I believe that we are the universe, the universe becoming conscious of itself. We are made of the same stuff the stars and planets are made of. We are matter & energy that has become organized enough to develop some self-awareness. We, the universe, exist to behold our own magnificence.
28 Jul 2009, 4:48 pm
The meaning of life is different for everyone. It is completely subjective and is determined by what you love. I had litte, if any, meaning to my life until my son was born. I did not know I could love anyone that much or that unconditionally, and the minute he was born, I never questioned the meaning of my life again.
In retrospect, I don't think you need to have children to have meaning in life, but you have to have something you love more than yourself. That gives your life meaning. It gives you a fixed point against which to plot your course in life.
Self-love does not work, I think, because the problem is, it is too easy to forgive yourself for coming up short. Loving yourself more does not mean you will take better care of your body or achieve more in life because such love also implies you forgive yourself if you fail to take care of yourself or fail to achieve more. Self-love is a zero sum game, and thus does not help you plot any particular course in life. I spent probably over a decade of my adult life in a state of feeling not much love, except to the extent I loved myself. It did not prompt me to take any clear path in life. Instead, I just followed the path of least resistance. While I thought I deserved better, I also forgave myself for not coming through with anything better.
It is possible aspies find it harder to love, particularly to love anything more than ourselves, because there seems to be a fundamental illogic to that. However, I am also considering the possibility that aspies love as much as anyone, but have trouble putting a meaning to the word love, and thus it is like a mole on our back, hard to see or feel, but there just the same.
Anyway, if you want to find meaning in life, you better find something or some one to love.
29 Jul 2009, 12:59 am
In retrospect, I don't think you need to have children to have meaning in life, but you have to have something you love more than yourself. That gives your life meaning. It gives you a fixed point against which to plot your course in life.
Self-love does not work, I think, because the problem is, it is too easy to forgive yourself for coming up short. Loving yourself more does not mean you will take better care of your body or achieve more in life because such love also implies you forgive yourself if you fail to take care of yourself or fail to achieve more. Self-love is a zero sum game, and thus does not help you plot any particular course in life. I spent probably over a decade of my adult life in a state of feeling not much love, except to the extent I loved myself. It did not prompt me to take any clear path in life. Instead, I just followed the path of least resistance. While I thought I deserved better, I also forgave myself for not coming through with anything better.
It is possible aspies find it harder to love, particularly to love anything more than ourselves, because there seems to be a fundamental illogic to that. However, I am also considering the possibility that aspies love as much as anyone, but have trouble putting a meaning to the word love, and thus it is like a mole on our back, hard to see or feel, but there just the same.
Anyway, if you want to find meaning in life, you better find something or some one to love.
For those who find meaning in life only through their relationships with other people there is a large problem as other people are an indeterminate and frequently a negative factor. There is enough fascination in the mere exploration of the various kinds of other life and non-living things to make life quite fascinating and worthwhile for me.
29 Jul 2009, 2:12 am
Life is strange. Everything can seem normal, right, purposeful, as if God were taking care of you and giving you, more or less, a good life. Then the demons can come out. All of a sudden, this same, normal life that has been going along can be spiraled into horrible depths of pain, suffering, and a strong sense of detachment from any type of higher power who might give a damn. This same world, with the same stuff in it, can in an instant, be painted dark, and through no action of your own, unleash upon you unspeakable pains and cruelties. So evil and so unfamiliar. This is the same world of flowers, TV shows, skies, etc.; only the entire vibe of the place crashes down on you like an overwhelming weight on your soul. This same world still comes at you, only it now comes at you with a sense of punishment and seeming disgust towards you as if you deserved this treatment for the crime of being born, a crime you never even chose to commit.
Why? So life can be a complete picture? Good and bad? Up and down? Is that a good enough answer? Wouldn’t we forgive the incompleteness of life if it spared us and our loved ones unspeakable pains?
Is it because everything is relative and there can be no happiness without sadness? Then why don’t starving children in Africa ever get to fly and airplane or swim with dolphins?
Is physical pain there because the universe is strictly mechanical and our organic bodies simply rott? What about emotional anguish caused by feelings rather than the actions of atoms and molecules? Personal prisons of punishment which exist in the mind, yet engulf the mind.
Why the suffering? Humans cry as they begin life as babies, matured humans gets cancer and spend years in agony, young adolescence feel the unbearable pain of a broken heart, ulcers, arthritis, loneliness and many other cruelties await the majority of us as we creep past our 60’s. Is life suffering as Buddha suggested?
Is it just so we learn to appreciate the times when there is no pain? That seems like a cruel way to force someone to appreciate something. An explanation wouldn’t fix the pain and suffering, but it would help. Although I don’t think any explanation is good enough to justify the pain we face. Even if God gave us the perfect explanation at the end of our lives to make us understand and agree with the pain, it still doesn’t help us at all right now or for the next 10, 20 or 50 years until we get that explanation. Now is when we feel the pain. We can’t remember the future, so therefore no hope for an explanation to come could ever justify pain that we and others feel.
Is there no reason? It’s strictly mechanical? If it is, are we lost and defenseless? I think this line of thinking may lead to a view of a purposeless life, one in which everything just happens for no reason and we must just deal with the now. In that case, I believe all we can do is deal with the pain and try to avoid it because trying to understand won’t help when there is no explanation.
And what about the evil that exists in life? I’ve seen it. And I’ve even felt it brewing in my own heart and mind. It is really and truly evil. This feeling is most likely responsible for the character man has created and called “the Devil.” It is a real feeling, a real vibe. This pure cruelty and darkness is as realistic as a sunset or the ocean. It is there and once you experience it or feel it, its existence can be denied no more than your own.
So why this bad side of life? Why does it have to be there? Why must we live with something we don’t want to live with? We get frustrated by a lack of control over what is supposedly our own lives, but it’s even worse when it’s something so terrible and that we can even hate, yet it is shoved into our existence so strongly that we are unable to escape it.
I can’t explain the reason for or origin of pain and evil, but they can be the definition of cruel and unfair. I can’t stand the fact that pain and evil are hidden somewhere in the folds of my future and are presently existing in the lives of many at this very moment. Are these foes we must extinguish so we can be more happy and carefree? Or are these horrible parts of our reality which are inescapable and ones that we must deal with without any help or reason or understanding? Just cold hard pain?
29 Jul 2009, 2:43 am
Why? So life can be a complete picture? Good and bad? Up and down? Is that a good enough answer? Wouldn’t we forgive the incompleteness of life if it spared us and our loved ones unspeakable pains?
Is it because everything is relative and there can be no happiness without sadness? Then why don’t starving children in Africa ever get to fly and airplane or swim with dolphins?
Is physical pain there because the universe is strictly mechanical and our organic bodies simply rott? What about emotional anguish caused by feelings rather than the actions of atoms and molecules? Personal prisons of punishment which exist in the mind, yet engulf the mind.
Why the suffering? Humans cry as they begin life as babies, matured humans gets cancer and spend years in agony, young adolescence feel the unbearable pain of a broken heart, ulcers, arthritis, loneliness and many other cruelties await the majority of us as we creep past our 60’s. Is life suffering as Buddha suggested?
Is it just so we learn to appreciate the times when there is no pain? That seems like a cruel way to force someone to appreciate something. An explanation wouldn’t fix the pain and suffering, but it would help. Although I don’t think any explanation is good enough to justify the pain we face. Even if God gave us the perfect explanation at the end of our lives to make us understand and agree with the pain, it still doesn’t help us at all right now or for the next 10, 20 or 50 years until we get that explanation. Now is when we feel the pain. We can’t remember the future, so therefore no hope for an explanation to come could ever justify pain that we and others feel.
Is there no reason? It’s strictly mechanical? If it is, are we lost and defenseless? I think this line of thinking may lead to a view of a purposeless life, one in which everything just happens for no reason and we must just deal with the now. In that case, I believe all we can do is deal with the pain and try to avoid it because trying to understand won’t help when there is no explanation.
And what about the evil that exists in life? I’ve seen it. And I’ve even felt it brewing in my own heart and mind. It is really and truly evil. This feeling is most likely responsible for the character man has created and called “the Devil.” It is a real feeling, a real vibe. This pure cruelty and darkness is as realistic as a sunset or the ocean. It is there and once you experience it or feel it, its existence can be denied no more than your own.
So why this bad side of life? Why does it have to be there? Why must we live with something we don’t want to live with? We get frustrated by a lack of control over what is supposedly our own lives, but it’s even worse when it’s something so terrible and that we can even hate, yet it is shoved into our existence so strongly that we are unable to escape it.
I can’t explain the reason for or origin of pain and evil, but they can be the definition of cruel and unfair. I can’t stand the fact that pain and evil are hidden somewhere in the folds of my future and are presently existing in the lives of many at this very moment. Are these foes we must extinguish so we can be more happy and carefree? Or are these horrible parts of our reality which are inescapable and ones that we must deal with without any help or reason or understanding? Just cold hard pain?
Whether you accept it or not humans and all forms of life are machines to confront and deal with the infinite problems the universe throws in our paths. Our consciousness places each of us at the center of our universe just as visually all objects decrease in size from each one of our points of view. Thus we get to assume that the universe has us as its target when we are merely embedded in all sorts of general changes. If you start to take the universe and its callous changes personally you get involved with religious nonsenses of a controlling malevolent God or some other sort of paranoia. It helps to stabilize our attitudes and give some mental peace to understand the universe cares no way either for or against us and we must make the best of whatever is neutrally thrown at us.
Xingularity
Butterfly
Joined: 6 Jan 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 12
Location: Arriving somewhere, but not here
29 Jul 2009, 5:58 am
Life may be a purposeless mishmash of a chemical chain-reaction, but that doesn't mean there is nothing to live for. I'll share with you all what I have spent much time ordering and refining over the past few weeks:
As life evolved on this planet, it became advantageous for organisms to have a control mechanism of some sort. This began as a central nervous system, which over time grew in complexity into what we today recognize as a brain. The brain's job in any organism is to read and process sensory input, build from this a simple model relating cause to effect, and coordinate an action to satisfy the most desirable outcome. In order to do this in the complex case of human logic, it must attribute a reason to its intended actions. Only once this intent or goal is decided upon can any course of action be deemed more satisfactory than another and a single action chosen.
"So," the reader asks, "how does this make the question of life's purpose senseless?" The answer is simple: purpose is only relevant when attributed to an action by an intellect. An object has no purpose until someone has an outcome they wish to achieve. A big stick is simply a big stick until a hunter decides that it is a suitable tool for killing their food. On its own, the stick would have remained on the ground, and decayed over time. In the same way, a purpose can only be attributed to a being by another being (or themselves).
I hope this serves to brighten someone's day.
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