God-given rights?

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JWC
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07 Mar 2011, 2:42 pm

My position is that if something exists it most be observable and measurable. The opposite is true as well.

leejosepho
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07 Mar 2011, 2:44 pm

JWC wrote:

My position is that if something exists it most be observable and measurable. The opposite is true as well.

Not sure what you mean by the opposite there, but your "position" can only keep you blinded ... and I would be dead now if that had been my own "position" -- I actually had/have none -- back in '81.

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JWC
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07 Mar 2011, 2:48 pm

The opposite is true: if something is observable and measurable, then it exists.

It can only blind me from that which does not exist, which I really don't think is a problem.

Philologos
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07 Mar 2011, 5:05 pm

The wind bloweth where it listeth through the fingerholes of the mind.

leejosepho
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07 Mar 2011, 5:42 pm

JWC wrote:

The opposite is true: if something is observable and measurable, then it exists ...

... and my permanent recovery from chronic alcoholism exists, and it did not come from any human being.

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JWC
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07 Mar 2011, 5:44 pm

It came from you. Either way it is still observable and measurable.

tic-tac
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07 Mar 2011, 6:39 pm

leejosepho wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

tic-tac wrote:

leejosepho wrote:

tic-tac wrote:

Interesting question. Would have to start at the beginning, where we are given dominion over the Earth.

So then, we have a right to breathe and a right to eat and drink from the earth and a right to travel to-and-fro upon it ...

Yes but not what I meant; it's our god given right as humans to rule this planet.

Rule? We do not rule this planet. We live on it ...

Yes. Having dominion simply puts us at the top of the food chain where we have a "right" to eat as we please.

Some may see it as much a responsibility as a right.

Quote:

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Psalm 8
1O LORD, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
2Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
9O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

However, I saw after my post that I, like another memeber, misunderstood this as a simple question of the OP seeking biblical reference to God given rights. I see now the question is more specific, so my contribution is pointless.

Philologos
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07 Mar 2011, 7:46 pm

There is no right without concomitant responsibility.

There is no language so hard to learn and understand as another dialect of your own language which APPEARS to use the same words.

Awesomelyglorious
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07 Mar 2011, 8:07 pm

JWC, what if the action needed to sustain my life means violating your rights and/or killing you? Is it reasonable for me to refrain from violating those rights and/or killing you? If it is reasonable, then why is it reasonable? It seems clear to me, and perhaps most human beings, that it is actually unreasonable for me to refrain from violating your rights, and even only questionable on the killing you part.

leejosepho
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07 Mar 2011, 8:30 pm

JWC wrote:

It came from you. Either way it is still observable and measurable.

Call me a liar, delusional, hallucinating or whatever else, but my recovery still did not come from me or from any other man!

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91
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07 Mar 2011, 8:34 pm

Orwell wrote:

91 wrote:

I have not read those comments. On the metaphysical level their statements might be wrong. However, the road to human rights is as good by train as it is by boat... All I really care about is that people get there.

The original prompting of my question was a rejection of the social contract theory of rights on the basis that if our rights are granted by government (since government is the institution which establishes and administers the social contract) then government can also revoke our rights.

The statist view is quite common. It is certainly not my favorite view but I would not go so far as to call it wrong. The US Bill of Rights, however, does not follow this view... There is a caveat right that specifically states that not all rights are listed in the document. The US view in my view prefers the natural rights view but it is quite compatible with the evolved view.

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JWC
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07 Mar 2011, 8:35 pm

In that scenario, you would be forced to accept your fate or find another way to maintain your existence. There is no such thing as a right to violate the rights of others. That scenario is highly improbable, if even possible.

Philologos
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07 Mar 2011, 8:36 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

That is inevitable where might - individual or aggregate - is the only right.

But on the other hand - where rights DO come from outside and DO carry responsibility, there is a diferent reasonability:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Kolbe

Specifically the part on his death.

JWC
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07 Mar 2011, 9:01 pm

It was the result of your effort and your will power. Someone didn't come up and hand it to you, you made it a fact. You made it the truth to say that you are no longer an alcoholic.

leejosepho
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07 Mar 2011, 9:05 pm

JWC wrote:

In that scenario, you would be forced to accept your fate or find another way to maintain your existence. There is no such thing as a right to violate the rights of others.

Yes. Like in the story of two men in the ocean with only one life preserver available, neither has any right to demand the preserver for himself.

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Orwell
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07 Mar 2011, 9:11 pm

JWC wrote:

In that scenario, you would be forced to accept your fate or find another way to maintain your existence. There is no such thing as a right to violate the rights of others.

Is there such a thing as the right not to have your rights violated? Because then you are claiming a right to an outcome. You have the right to attempt to defend yourself (action), maybe, but if I am stronger, then you lose (you have no right to the outcome of you actually surviving).

Quote:

That scenario is highly improbable, if even possible.

You've got to be kidding me. That scenario probably happens thousands of times every single day.

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