should Obama's plan go through in the U.S...................

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22 Apr 2011, 1:54 am

DW_a_mom wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Here is a question for you then: Should the Constitution be ignored by the Government whenever they feel like it?

I don't think they should be able to, but reality is, its done all the time. Think Bush 1st term. Think the failure to throw out California's Prop 13 at least with respect to commerical properties. Both widely in legal circles to have been considered political punts in opposition of the predominant constitutional interpretation.

I'm not a constitutional expert, but legal experts mostly seem to feel the mandate IS constitutional. On constitutional issues I tend to put my finger in the wind and see which way the expert legal opinion is blowing. Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean its fact. Apparently, the concept of what is and is not constitutional is often a matter of opinion.

Guess not much in life is black and white, is it? Regardless of how strongly you want to believe it is.

It isn't a matter of ignoring the constitution.

Where specifically in the constitution does it give the government the right to force people to buy private health insurance? Hint: it doesn't. Unless specifically noted, that power does not exist as per the 10th amendment. No creative interpretation of the constitution can change this. The individual mandate will be struck down as unconstitutional in the courts and or nullified by the states. Hopefully the whole thing will be repealed because without the mandate, health insurance costs will skyrocket (they will be going up regardless since Obamacare does nothing to control the cost) since all the mandate is was a bribe to the insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions and to cover kids on their parent's insurance until they're 27. Corporatism 101. We'd be better off with completely socialized medicine(a true free market preferable over all) then this evil corporatized monstrosity.

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22 Apr 2011, 3:07 am

Inuyasha wrote:

You do not engage in commerce simply because you have a heartbeat

Isnt that interesting? You apparently do not require sustenance. You are one of those rare non-eating types of humans. Manna from heaven? Apparently, because just having a heartbeat does not mean you must engage in commerce.

And I suppose you dont attend school. But if you did, teleportation would be the way to go so that you would not be required to synchronize your heart beat with the onerous task of engaging in busing commerce.

Its probably best that you dont attend classes of course. Surely just because you have a heart beat you are not required to engage in textile commerce. A free man like you runs around naked.

Or maybe the guys are right and you need to get out from under the shadow of your mommies boob and experience some non-required commerce.

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22 Apr 2011, 5:08 am

The passage of "Obamacare" (are neocons still repeating that particular buzzword to themselves incessantly?) allowed me to stay on my parents' insurance past 22, and thereby afford very expensive medication which keeps me ALIVE.

It's interesting to see all the opining with very few mentions of the ACTUAL life and death question of this legislation.

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22 Apr 2011, 8:26 pm

Bethie wrote:

Unfortunately, the only time you hear about life and death issues is when the Republicans are spouting horses**t about death panels.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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22 Apr 2011, 9:49 pm

Bethie wrote:

Not trying to be mean here but what do you intend to do once you can no longer stay on your parents insurance in a few years?

Obamacare(or whatever term you want to use for it; not a neocon btw) will probably cause healthcare costs to rise and especially so once the mandate is struck down so those expensive drugs you need to stay alive will be even more expensive. Seems a little short sighted to me unless you thinking of it in some sort of weird incrementalist approach to socialized medicine because I really don't see how anybody besides health insurance executives could support this bill.

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22 Apr 2011, 10:06 pm

Jacoby wrote:

Bethie wrote:

Not trying to be mean here but what do you intend to do once you can no longer stay on your parents insurance in a few years?

Obamacare(or whatever term you want to use for it; not a neocon btw) will probably cause healthcare costs to rise and especially so once the mandate is struck down so those expensive drugs you need to stay alive will be even more expensive. Seems a little short sighted to me unless you thinking of it in some sort of weird incrementalist approach to socialized medicine because I really don't see how anybody besides health insurance executives could support this bill.

Hence my point- the people quibbling about the "mandate" seem to genuinely value the notion of private property over human life, and their opposition to it will undoubtedly result in many deaths.

As far as my issues are concerned, it would require a radical destabilization of pharmaceutical infrastructure for the cost of my medication with insurance to be more expensive than what I'd pay for it out-of-pocket.

I've yet to see anyone opining about government "theft" of their money and unconstitutionalities address the subject of suffering and death being a MOST "cruel and unusual punishment" for the crime of being poor.

I have no idea what I'll do when kicked off my parents' insurance- maybe earn money on my back.

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22 Apr 2011, 11:05 pm

Fuzzy wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

You do not engage in commerce simply because you have a heartbeat

You can't argue that just cause someone buys food they have to buy health insurance, the two aren't even remotely related. That's like saying you bought a new pair of pants so you have to go out and get auto insurance when you don't have a car.

Fuzzy wrote:

And I suppose you dont attend school. But if you did, teleportation would be the way to go so that you would not be required to synchronize your heart beat with the onerous task of engaging in busing commerce.

Excuse me, but I actually have a Bachelor's Degree and somehow I doubt you even made it out of high school, or the college you went to was staffed by incompetitent baboons. I have actually had to take a business law class and a took a history class on Constitutional Law. There has never been a Supreme Court case that says government can force you to buy a product simply because you exist.

Fuzzy wrote:

Its probably best that you dont attend classes of course. Surely just because you have a heart beat you are not required to engage in textile commerce. A free man like you runs around naked.

Facts, logic apparently lieberals loathe these things.

Fuzzy wrote:

Or maybe the guys are right and you need to get out from under the shadow of your mommies boob and experience some non-required commerce.

Or you guys simply have no idea what you are talking about, which would be the correct answer because you honestly have no clue.

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22 Apr 2011, 11:13 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

Fuzzy wrote:

Excuse me, but I actually have a Bachelor's Degree and somehow I doubt you even made it out of high school, or the college you went to was staffed by incompetitent baboons. I have actually had to take a business law class and a took a history class on Constitutional Law. There has never been a Supreme Court case that says government can force you to buy a product simply because you exist.

Did you take a bunch of neurotoxic, brain-killing narcotics after gaining that degree?

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22 Apr 2011, 11:28 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

Irony.

And also...

ROFL you have a BACHELOR'S, and you're still this ignorant and overly-emotional over issues? Dude, unless you went to a community college, you got gypped! I'd get my money back. :lol:

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22 Apr 2011, 11:33 pm

Bethie wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Well, apparently his Clown College didn't teach him about False Dichotomies.

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23 Apr 2011, 3:03 am

Inuyasha wrote:

You said:

Inuyasha wrote:

You do not engage in commerce simply because you have a heartbeat

You do. To eat. You live, you pay for things that let you traverse society, food and shelter being the primary items. You have a heart beat, you must engage in some sort of commerce.

Quote:

I gave you two excellent ones. Someone had to purchase your primary and high school educations. And someone had to pay to get you there. As an American you are required to attend school till the 16th year of life, correct? Someone had no choice but to pay. Has the Supreme Court ever had that challenged Mister Law?

Quote:

A free man like you runs around naked.

Again, I was able to be completely ridiculous based on your claims that (let me quote you again)

Inuyasha wrote:

You do not engage in commerce simply because you have a heartbeat

Again, what decision of your courts has enabled you to go around naked? None. You must purchase clothing, obviously, or face government sanctioned Indecency laws. Freedom be damned.

Quote:

Or you guys simply have no idea what you are talking about, which would be the correct answer because you honestly have no clue.

Based on the fact that you seem to live oblivious to the fact that the state repeatedly and continuously makes you purchase things against your will indicates that it is you that has no clue. Your claim is laughably bogus.

Inuyasha wrote:

You do not engage in commerce simply because you have a heartbeat

HAHAHAHAHA!

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23 Apr 2011, 9:01 am

Master_Pedant wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Fuzzy wrote:

Did you take a bunch of neurotoxic, brain-killing narcotics after gaining that degree?

Nope, I'm not into drugs nor am I into alcohol.

Bethie wrote:

Irony.

And also...

ROFL you have a BACHELOR'S, and you're still this ignorant and overly-emotional over issues? Dude, unless you went to a community college, you got gypped! I'd get my money back

You're projecting again.

Fuzzy wrote:

You do. To eat. You live, you pay for things that let you traverse society, food and shelter being the primary items. You have a heart beat, you must engage in some sort of commerce.

Commerce clause refers to voluntary behavior within the area of commerce you are participating in. Food regulations are on the producer and the seller not the consumer. The consumer is not told what foods they have to buy. Further, you can't tell someone they have to buy a tennis ball because they bought a head of lettuce.

Under Obamacare, this premise is thrown out the window.

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23 Apr 2011, 10:29 am

Quote:

There has never been a Supreme Court case that says government can force you to buy a product simply because you exist.

But that's not what it says. That's just you lying again. :lol:

There is an income test, not a heart beat test. And you can always pay the fee/tax regardless. Government is free to levy taxes to pay for things. That's been happening for a very long time.

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23 Apr 2011, 11:28 am

simon_says wrote:

Quote:

There has never been a Supreme Court case that says government can force you to buy a product simply because you exist.

But that's not what it says. That's just you lying again. :lol:

There is an income test, not a heart beat test. And you can always pay the fee/tax regardless. Government is free to levy taxes to pay for things. That's been happening for a very long time.

that's not a tax, that's a fine for not buying something from private company

it was explicitly passed as not a tax either

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23 Apr 2011, 11:50 am

That's one argument in it's favor on broad principles.

The government levies taxes on everyone and then provides breaks to encourage behavior. In this case they provide the break to everyone, and then apply the penalty. The principle is exactly the same, if not the details. Big brother uses revenue collection rules to encourage behavior he deems valuable. There is nothing new about that.

But the legal argument will come down to regulating commerce. Two district judges have dismissed the challenges and two have found it unconstitutional. That doesnt really say much yet. I wouldnt count your unicorns and ponies yet.

EDIT: Well, actually 3 district courts have said it's constitutional now. So it's 3-2. The circuit courts of appeal will have 3 judge panels so we'll see what happens.

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23 Apr 2011, 1:23 pm

No, not really. They're not providing any service, they're forcing you to by insurance from a private company. It is in no way a tax and you can not argue that is, period. If you want an easier to understand reason why it is unconstitutional, read the 10th amendment and then reread the rest the constitution and then show me where it says anything the power to force you to buy insurance.

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