Atheists - why?

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@ Aspie-Rant

I am not as familiar with the mythology claims of the Zeitgeist producers as I should be. Mainly due to the fact that when someone is in disagreement with both the Jesus Seminar (though I did once watch one make such claims...) and Orthodox Christian Theologians.

What I find striking about the whole thing is how utterly stuck it is in the past. Modern atheism is philosophically stuck enough as it is... but at least they broke down in the 50s... the mythology group is stuck in the late nineteenth century.

If you want something less explicit, then this article will be more to your liking.

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/New ... le&id=6813

As to some of your claims:

This seems to be about Horus

1. Horus was not a sun God... that was Ra... Horus was God of the Sky
2. It was not a virgin birth.
3. Son and Sun... is a bad pun in English... but it isn't anything in Egyptian or Hebrew except the wildest equivocation fallacy.
4. December is a LATIN month. The Egyptian sources do not mention December 25th... The entire story is set not in 'time' by any calander.. rather it is the Egyptian equivalent of the 'dream time' or mythological time.
5. Horus was NOT crucified... he was not killed at all... Osiris was killed... Osiris was killed by his brother Set who cut him up into tiny bits and scattered them all over Egypt.... He did not resurrect... he became a mummy and continued to exist in the nether world.

Last edited by 91 on 12 May 2011, 1:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

It's nice to see that grossly intellectually dishonest 91 is back. Tell me, what at all is sensible about comparing 70% of atheists to the 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of elite Christians when it comes to how "up to date" people are? Honestly, to take a miniscule amount of Christians who could probably be counted on the fingers of a hand and decry how inferior a random atheist is to them is moronic. Besides, given the amount of time it takes philosophical ideas to trickle into the larger culture, most educated but not philosophically specialized people probably harbour outdated ideas right now.

^^^^

Its good to see you too MP.

Thanks, even though that is tautologically true.

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... and the god of war.. and the lord and owner of upper and lower egypt.. and the god of protection... and the god of the king... and the god of vengeance... and the god of the sky who had the sun as his right eye (horus eye in the sky!) and the moon as his left eye and that they traveled across the sky as he flew along.

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horus' mother isis was the goddess of fertility and motherhood... and horus' father osiris the lord of the dead was dead himself and had to become alive (resurrect) to even become a father in the first place.... and that's were the virgin birth myth possibly originates from

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i agree! extreme bad pun! but as i warned... it is for entertainment only.... so watch and think. there are tons of mistakes and odd things going on in zeitgeist... but that is besides my point: i try to demonstrate that there are multiple links to other religions and cultures loooong before the story of the christians came to life.

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all around the world in any culture or religion... winter solstice + 3 days ... is the equivalent to dec. 25th according to the julian calender...
e.g. yule was a viking winter soltice party lasting many days and nights.. øh... twelve.... and even odin was used as prototype for father x-mas... and sleipnir prototypes for the reindeers... and even tomter or nisser(icelandic: yule lads) became inspiration for santa's helpers!!

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horus was crucified alright... but NOT in the way people think of crucifixion as mentioned in the bible... so he was indeed not killed by cruxifiction... he was affixed to the cross of the vernal equinox, between two thieves... hence the "resurrection" in the sky...


please do not take zeitgeist literally. it has many many mistakes, but use it as an overall idea of how religious myths wander across era's and cultures... the are folklore tales. no more. no less.

if you would state something "wrong" with horus... you should have said:

horus didn't exist. he is just like all the others mentioned... a myth.

@aspie-rant

Read the link I gave you... It contains all the evidence that is really needed to disprove the Christ-myth idea.

i have read it. but i do not agree with all of it, as you can see in my previous answer.

Err, no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_thought


Which should be enough to analyze the roots of a 2000 years old religion.

Just because an original feature is added to an old myth, it does not disprove that it was based on an old myth.

For whatever reason, whether intentional by the original Christians or caused by the Roman "embrace extend and conquer" attitude towards Christianity. Christianity does have a lot of Sun and other pagan symbolism. Ie: For whatever reason, they picked the solstice for Christmas.

I think that to claim that Christianity is not at least heavily influenced by pagan beliefs really needs a lot more evidence than the babblings of some christian guy in some web site. Even freaking Amen can be traced to Egyptian tradition.

This Christ-myth stuff is the intellectual equivalent of young earth creationism...

For example... take Vex's citation of 'Amen' as being from Egypt... this just has ZERO support in academia.

The fact that Amun can be put as Amen in English does not mean it is like that in Ancient Egyptian. In Hebrew it starts with aleph while in Egyptian it starts with Yodh.

I'm truly amazed how out of hand a single question is capable of becoming on WP posts. I cannot/should not say "I'm pulling the plug" as it no longer belongs just to me. It's difficult to say "I give up" as this would only add fuel to the fire. However, I would like to wrap up my thoughts on everything that has been said here and conclude my arguments. Philologos, leejosepho, AngelRho, and the other "theists", will agree with some of this and disagree with others.

Before I do so, let me remind everyone here of the elephant in the room. Most of us, if not all of us, who are posting on this board have Asperger's Syndrome. This means that we are not the clearest communicators. Some of us might not even always be the clearest thinkers 100 percent of the time. I have come close to being offended by the way some of you speak to me, but I remind myself that, given other circumstances, I might've expressed myself similarly with others, and have. That being said, I have tried to maintain a spirit of mercy and humility when speaking with all of you. Whatever creed you may claim to have, let's try and all do the same.

All right then...

The being we speak of as "God" is a spirit named Jehovah or Yahweh (since we are reading this in English; the Name has other Pronunciations). He created the universe many, many years ago. I cannot say how many, but it was definitely more than a few thousand. Before he did that, He created another spirit. He took this spirit to be His son and taught him everything He knew. Together, they constructed all other things that exist (Colossians 1:15, 16). I did not witness this, just as I did not witness the bombing of Pearl Harbor. But I believe that both happened. There is proof.

Think about the mathematical sequences found in nature. Symmetry (or near symmetry) is a common occurence. The Fibanacci sequence is found the petals of flowers. Outer space is infinite and full of glorious bodies, so that Astronaut John Glenn noted that there must be something that created it all. This comes from someone who has a perspective of the universe that you and I don't.

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/to-look-out-at-this-kind-of-creation-out-here-and/595666.html

While you're at it, think about our bodies. Let's forget the remarkable capacity for healing it has or the fact that the human brain is the most incredible machine known to humanity. Instead, let's focus on things we sometimes take for granted. Music. Art. Ice cream. Not one of these is necessary for human survival. We could all eat the same food alll the time with all the nutrients we need and be perfectly healthy. And yet, we have a variety of colors, textures, and tastes. And we have the capacity to create even more. Isn't the fact that we have such things inspiring to the thought on an intelligence behind it all?

The first things to be created were the spirit realm, including all the spirits within. These include the spirit which came to be known as the Devil as well as other angels (Job 38:4-7). Afterward, probably billions of years after it all started, He began forming the earth. Genesis gives a list of the events that happened during the Earth's forming. 1)light appears on the earth 2)the sky/atmosphere becomes recognizable 3)land appears 4)the sun, moon, and stars become visible 5)fish and birds are created 6)mammals created 7)man created. Modern science agrees with this order. Finally, God says, "Let us create man in our image." Who is he talking to? His son. Like them, we have the capacity for creativity, love and emotion on a scale that no other animal has. I would not argue that God could not have used evolution to create. Of course He could have. But he choose not to. Instead of all coming from a common ancestor, His creations are each unique, displaying attributes and quirks that are unlike any others.

Does anyone truly doubt that it was possible for men to be made from dirt? Is that not where the "primordial soup" came from more or less? The universe is 98 percent hydrogen and we share much of the same chemical properties as dirt. I choose to believe in God and creation. You choose to believe in the Soup and evolution. Neither of us witnessed either one. Can we agree on that much? Until the 1800's, pretty much everyone believed in spontaneous generation. This means that, for example, when you leave meat out for several days, flies are produced from the meat rather than by the mating of flies. This was considered a scientific fact. While we all agree (I hope) that this is absurd, how can you believe that life was produced from similar material?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#Spontaneous_generation

Not long after putting Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, one of the spirits decided they he wanted more than he had been given. He, in effect, wanted to usurp the position of God. To do this, he targeted the youngest of God's creations: Eve. Using ventriloquism to make it appear that a snake was speaking to her, this spirit had the following conversation with Eve:

He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’” “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Genesis 3:1-5

What the spirit, now known as Satan the Devil, did here was to call God a liar to Eve. The conversation might just as well went like this:

SATAN: Why won't God let you eat from the tree?

EVE: God lets me eat from all the other trees, just not this one. He created me, so He knows what's best for me.

SATAN: That's what you think. You'd be better off going against God. You'd be better off without Him.

Eve then chose to go her own way rather than sticking with God's Will. Later, she convinced her husband to do the same. So here God had created humanity, whom He wanted to live in this beautiful place forever and make the rest of the Earth just like it, and have children who would be happy and live in such a place. All ruined by one of his own spirits. It is for that reason that God then addresses, not the dumb beast we known as a snake, but his spirit son who had become the Devil (or "slanderer").

“Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” Genesis 3:14, 15

This offspring that would crush the serpent, or devil, became the thing of legends. It brought to birth the legends of Hercules, Nimrod, and Osiris among many others. These myths, though, were but a shadow of the reality that God had in mind. They finally came to fulfillment with the birth, life, and death of Jesus. This was the physical embodiment of that 1st spirit that God had created so many, many years ago. His temporary death proved to be but a wound to the heel. His coming triumph over Satan the Devil will be the final (fatal) blow to that Serpent's head.

Now, Awesomelyglorious has made the argument that the same logic applied to the existence of God could be applied to Cthulu. Let's forget the obvious fact that Cthulu is not meant to be interpreted as being a real god and that he is not believed in by any sane and intelligent person anywhere. Instead, let's focus on God's Creatorship. Since He created all things, He has the right to determine what is right and wrong. He instills those values into us. After all, I don't think anyone here condones murder, and neither does God as the Law clearly states (Exodus 20:13). Murder, of course, is defined as the unlawful killing of another human with malicious intention (Webster's). So I hope we can agree that that is wrong. Had God chosen to make that all right, it would be. But then, we would be completely different people in a completely different world. As fnord notes in his blog, there is only way that things turned out. Forget the alternate possibilities. There is only one universe. And in it, God has set the rules, and you have an inner sense of them whether you acknowledge Him or not (Romans 2:14)

You often hear from Christians, "Jesus died for our sins." Indeed he did. But there's more to that. In fact, where many Christians get it wrong is in thinking that humanity's salvation was the most important thing for Jesus. It was important, but THE MOST important thing Jesus was here for was to vindicate God's Name. He wanted to proved that a perfect, sinless human follower of God could stand all the tests of evil and remain unblemished. In doing this, he proved that God's way is the best, that Eve was wrong in choosing to dispbey all those years ago. If we take the Vindication of God, not the Salvation of Man, as the theme of the Bible and the reason for what has happened these past few millenia, we will have many of the answers some of you have brought up. Why the flood? Why the plagues upon Egypt? Why the destruction of Canaan and other nations? God answers this question to Moses.

And the Egyptians will know that I am Jehovah when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it.

Exodus 7:5

And that is what's most important: that everyone knows that He is God Almighty and that He is our rightful King. He sets the boundaries for us and tells us what we should do. But He also loves us. He wants to take care of us. He wants us to be happy, healthy and safe.

And there's more. Why, you ask, does God not stop suffering if He has the power to do it. Why does He not cure the blind, deaf, cancerous, or regenerate missing limbs? Well, there would have to be a lot more to fixing the world as it is then just curing diseases or ailments. There are people on this planet who could not continue to exist the way they are. Revelation points to some of humanity being destroyed because they simply will not conform to God's standards, even after having proof of His existence. God doesn't want to do that.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

So God has not brought about the end of this world as we know it because, when that happens, He will have to kill some of the people now living on it and He doesn't want to do that! I don't think any of us want to be one of the ones that God decides must be killed. Would we not rather continue to live in Parasidic conditions under the rule of a God who loves us and wants what's best for us, and knows what that is better even than we do?

Some of you may be saying now, "Well, if I see proof of God, then I will believe." Will you? In Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, this conversation takes place.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:27-31

Jesus seems to be indicating that we have everything we need in the Scriptures to know that God exists and what he wants from us. If you won't believe from these, there is not much hope that you will believe even if you see miracles like the dead rising. I ask that you take this into consideration.

My friends, I don't wish to offend or make enemies of any of you. I feel that I have an obligation to tell you what I know to be true. Some of you feel that same obligation I think. My word might not mean much to you, as I am only a single voice going out across cyberspace. You don't anything about me except what I write on this board. But I tell you that I am sincere. I care about each of you and about your welfare. I truly believe the things I say and am worried that you will not take it seriously until it is too late. Please consider this information to be from a concerned, educated colleague who wants the best for you.

Thank you

Where in Egyptian Mythology does it say that Horus was this and that and did this and that according to the claims made in the video?

Yes, let's stick to Horus for now. We'll deal with the other deities later.

I for one am very familiar with most of the ancient mythologies. That's why it pisses me off when a dishonest movement like the Zeitgeist produce videos that post clearly false information about what those mythologies say and claim and nonChristian people (supposed to be rationalists) easily fall for their lies.

No reliable source whatsoever.

Typical of conspiracy theorists.

One thing to keep in mind here in PPR is the fact many/most people asking those kinds of questions are not seeking answers for any reason other than to then just tear into them ... and then, of course, they expect the rest of us to believe they are actually doing so with ...

Ah, never mind. Anything I might say there will just also get mutilated beyond all recognition ... and then now for saying what I just have, I might next get accused of hiding something -- -- or just running off into some corner and thereby allegedly admitting ...

Ah, never mind!

Truly, thought, you make many good points any true seekers can already read for themselves without need of further comment anyway.

Personally, however, here is one that caught my own eye:


Yes, and then we have this ...

"Pure religion and vndefiled before God and the Father, is this, to visit the fatherlesse and widowes in their affliction, and to keepe himselfe vnspotted from the world." (KJV, 1611)

So simple, and yet so costly, eh?!

Ok.. I was going to leave this alone... but, I just can't. How can Jesus be called human if he was in fact a demigod? Sure, human body, but half of his DNA was either Divine... or missing, or he was the product of asexual reproduction.. but that can't be possible any more than half of his DNA missing can be possible... so, if you go with the idea that he was the Christ... then he was anything but human. Therefore, his being perfect and sinless are meaningless because he was already Divine.

????

The Bible works in mysterious ways, many of which illogical