Hey KXMode

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Well, "everyone" isn't attacking you. Two posters are asking questions about your beliefs and others are objecting to the presentation of those questions.
Nevertheless, the questions are still very interesting and I am hoping to see answers.

I think you may be a bit "spiritually weak", brother.






Your anecdotal evidence is purely subjective... and false.






You mean if they were caught hanging out with worldly people, they'd be taken down to the Kingdom Hall basement and given a private or even a public reproof.

Compare your statement to this quote from one of the Watchtowers.





No, you stopped celebrating holidays because if you were caught with Xmas lights or Halloween decorations, you'd be disfellowshipped.



Funny, you're told to limit your association with non-witness relatives.



And it gets even better...

Your mother's your mother, religion aside.



Again, subjective and anecdotal. I've had a negative experience with one of the "anointed" too. Doesn't mean all members of the anointed are racist jerks.



Plausible, since now because of the horrible job market and how watered down a high school diploma/GED is, nobody's taking plain high school graduates anymore and the WT relaxed their standards because they were afraid that nobody would be able to donate to the WT anymore.


On a personal note, did your critical thinking teacher at college reek of the scent of burnt rope and alcohol? That's the only way I can personally see you passing critical thinking.


No you're not "forbidden" from doing any of the 3, much like how I'm not forbidden from calling Alex Plank a money hungry attention whore whose fame went to his head on this messageboard (I don't really mean it, Alex), but if you don't see me on this board tomorrow, don't be surprised.



Any organization which tells your friends not to talk to you anymore because you did the above 3 does kind of count as 'bullying".


Actually, tithing isn't such a bad thing at all. Here's how I look at it: I go to a church weekly to listen to my pastor give me and the other parishioners a pep talk for 4 hours. She makes me feel personally refreshed and answers some spiritual questions I've been unable to answer for my entire life. She's nothing like my therapists or support groups, who only help the mental, not the spiritual. Therefore, if I go to church and see her giving a service that's so important to my life and seeing how it's basically her full time job, it's theft if I don't donate at least a sizable portion of my income to her. But that's just my personal opinion on tithing. I think there's nothing wrong with tithing since some ministers provide such a noble and excellent service, but that's just me.


Try making a sizable amount of money and refuse to donate to the WTS.. Let's see how far you'll go.


No, you simply cease communication with them.



Then come over to my house and let's have some iced tea sometime. I'll give you my address and you can come over. Afterwards, we can go to the amusement park and then ride BMXes down dirt hills the next day. Care to join me?

Why do you call kxmode a liar?

Because his "anecdotal report" of HIS experience does not match your theory?

Do you assume EVERYBODY is a consistent liar?

I didn't call him a liar, I just said that his anecdotal evidence isn't reliable, especially his since he's obviously a nobody in the JW caste system.

I believe I made a mistake in responding to this page. I am more than willing to talk about my religion with anyone who wants to hear. I'm also willing to discuss others' religion with them. But I don't have to subject myself to personal attacks or abuse. That's not to say that I have not had them happen outside of the internet, but if they happen on someone's doorstep, that is when I know it's time to leave. And that's what I'm doing now.

Anyone who would like to have an honest, open discussion without slander or namecalling, please send me a pm. If you still want answers to the questions posed to me by Fnord, please send me a pm.

Otherwise, everyone have a good day.

Forgiving somone should not need to be a religious act, though Jesus did point out it importance to human relations and mental healthy.

Did you know that my [academic atheist] counsellor told me [atheist me] that in order to get out of my psychological pit I needed to forgive someone whose actions I had only just realized I resented?

Yes, saying "I forgive you" unsolicited can be a highly unchristian act in both effect and intention. I do not personally advise people to tell people they have been forgiven.

We notice that Jesus is not recorded as telling anybody that he forgave him.

Wow. Just...WOW...

Yeah, if you didn't respond to this thread, you wouldn't have lost this debate.



What you really mean is "I am more than willing to criticize another person's religion but if you dare criticize mine, I'll claim religious abuse". Again, I used to be a JW. This is a very common behavior from JWs.



Wooah, pally boy. Where have I EVER personally attacked you in the above thread? Despite my strong criticism of your faith, I haven't once personally insulted you or called you any names. I did however, assert that you're being untruthful. And when I asserted that you were being untruthful I brought exact and actual quotes from Watchtower publications to back up my assertions.




What you really mean is "I was painted into an intellectual corner and I'm running away with my tail between my legs"..



We just did, and when I quoted contradictions between your statements and your religion's publications, you started claiming I was a liar or a slanderer. Now why would anybody want to get into a debate or a discussion with you if you can't really fathom the concept of you ever being wrong?



But I thought you had "the truth". If you really had "the truth", you could have answered those questions in a well thought out, clear response instead of accusing everybody who is asking you a critical question of lying or having ulterior motives.



Bubye...

Heh, I should have been more specific when I said "No, you simply cease communication with them". I meant to say "If nobody toes the line in his church, he and the rest of the members of his church ceases communication with the person as a method of punishment". But hey, if the shoe fits, wear it, even if you intended to wear a sandal and ended up wearing a wooden clog.

lol

I've only been lightly following this thread. Yes, I do think the way kxmode and kladky are being treated is a little heavy-handed. Yes, I am a Christian (not a Witness--I'm Baptist, of the SOUTHERN variety). But it is the custom of PPR to discuss and debate, and I've learned a lot about myself and my own faith from participating here, making mistakes, revising, coming back stronger, blah, blah, blah. I understand why kladky does not want to pursue this further, and I don't exactly blame him. But I also believe that any professing Christian ought to have an answer for his beliefs. I only wish I had more time to devote to thorough responses, but I don't have as much time to spend on WP like I used to.

There was a whole barrage there disputing the claims kladky made, and I admit I'm somewhat in awe that someone would "go there." I'm not in the WT "system" so-to-speak. I'm not a very good apologist and certainly not knowledgable enough on current Witness doctrine to attempt an apology "for the sake of argument." If WT has recent doctrinal shifts that would counter or supersede those older writings, that would have effectively ended the conversation. This didn't happen, of course, which leads me to suspect that there have not been any doctrinal revisions. So what, exactly, are we SUPPOSED to conclude?

Perhaps to you I would appear as a nobody, but I am somebody in the eyes of the only one who matters, Jehovah God. "For God is not unrighteous so as to forget YOUR work and the love YOU showed for his name." (Hebrews 6:10) "when YOU did not know God, then it was that YOU slaved for those who by nature are not gods. But . . . YOU have come to know God, or rather now . . . YOU have come to be known by God" (Galatians 4:8-9) Jehovah God knows me, and he sees the works I do in his name. You can't even begin to evaluate that as having no value especially when you consider the preaching work is something Jesus commanded all his followers to do. Since Jesus was God's ambassador to earth (John 3:16) this command to preach the good news is coming from God himself. Anyone who's a Christian, and has read the bible, knows they need to preach the good news. How can you call yourself a Christian if you don't do the one thing Jesus did for last three and half years of his earthly life? He even left a model for his followers to live their lives by; preaching the good news is foremost. (1 Peter 2:21)

Also, first Corinthians 12:18-23 compares the Christian congregation to a human body and its members as important parts of that body. "But now God has set the members in the body, each one of them, just as he pleased. If they were all one member, where would the body be? But now they are many members, yet one body. The eye cannot say to the hand: “I have no need of you”; or, again, the head [cannot say] to the feet: “I have no need of YOU.”" Together everyone has equal importance by filling various roles and responsibilities. The scripture continues, "But much rather is it the case that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary, and the parts of the body which we think to be less honorable, these we surround with more abundant honor, and so our unseemly parts (people like me) have the more abundant comeliness (beauty or value)." This is Jehovah describing the value of each person in His organization.

To be honest, I agree with you too, AngelR. If the WT religion were to admit their mistakes in the past, apologize for the false prophecies, apologize for the child abuse coverups, shunning people for not being 100% true believers, encouraging members to shun their non JW friends and family, etc, I would gladly go back in. I miss my old friends and a few members of my family and I would like to talk to them again. However, because I made my disagreements with the religion well known, I was ostracized and sadly, abused by my family.

If the religion changed their ways and apologized for separating families because of now changed doctrine (See the January 1, 1983 Watchtower, page 22: Re: "Jehovah's Celestial Chariot"), I would gladly return.

Yeah, but you're still a nothing in the eyes of the WT hierarchy. Unless you're either a zone overseer or a Bethelite, you're really nothing. They were grooming me to be an elder at my old hall so I know how the entire hierarchy worked. Bethelite>Zone Overseer>District Overseer>Circut Overseer>Presiding Overseer>Elder>Ministerial servant=Pioneer>Baptized Publisher>Unbaptized Publisher.

You're not really considered to be "spiritual" in the organization unless you're an elder, and you're not considered "a fine example" unless you're either a CO or a pioneer pulling in 200 hours a month. You're just some dupe on the internet who they're trying to wine and dine into staying in the org because of high turnover in membership. They think you're going to have multiple gullible children (due to the A.S.) and provide them with a larger membership base in the future. If you were really something in the org, you wouldn't be here.

But I do agree though, you are something in God's eyes, for we are all something in God's heart and in society.




Well, we know you can rattle off scripture, but do you actually know the truer, deeper meaning to this scripture?




I'll give my annotated editorial on both articles in about a day.

Those were my words based on my knowledge of scripture using the bible to reason. If my words look like copy/pasting it's only because I write well. Many Witnesses are intelligent people who know the bible and can form their own thoughts based on bible principles. But of course this gift doesn't come from us, it comes from our great god Jehovah who has helped us to see it. If you want me to form thoughts or opinions without the use of the bible... I won't do that. Jesus always said "It is written." In essence he always referred to the scriptures to make his points.

A side note: at least appreciate the fact that I'm going to read Psalm 77:1-20 in front of 90 people tonight. This is a very difficult thing to do for anyone, but most especially for someone with asperger's. It's taking a great deal of courage and reliance on Jehovah through prayer to help me. I'll report how the reading went later.

Your verbiage and cadence sound tone for tone like the writers at Bethel.



Few if any witnesses know the Bible. In the Theocratic Ministry School, you're not taught how to read Ancient Greek or Ancient Hebrew, a must if you want to know the bible. After all, you're studying a book originally written in those same languages and claiming vast expertise on those topics. It would be like me claiming to be an expert on Hans Asperger's papers without knowing one lick of German. Also, since going to the KH for most of my childhood, I've never heard one uttering about the Nicene council, the Council of Hippo or the Apocgryphia or about how the Bible was canonized. I learned all this stuff AFTER I stopped attending the Kingdom Hall. Even the main translator of the New World Translation admitted he was illiterate in the ancient Biblical languages

(Pursuer's Proof of Douglas Walsh vs. The Right Honourable James Latham, M.P., P.C., Scottish Court of Sessions, p. 92 Nov. 1954).



Except when it runs ahead of Jehovah's Celestial Chariot (AKA the Watchtower Organization), then you get disfellowshipped for "apostacy".



Using the bible, a book whose final book was written nearly 2000 years ago, to help you reason your day to day life and also the Bible itself is a lesson in anachronistic thinking and in faulty reasoning. The bible can only do so much. Eventually, you have to rely on your own reasoning since the bible's reasoning is finite.




Again, the bible's reasoning is finite.


Been there, done that, and I'll be blunt with you: Your talks will end up just like mine back when I was in; full of logical fallacies and would make a non JW either cringe or laugh.

But to be fair, let's see your introduction and your conclusion. Post it up for the rest of the board.

I will be interested to hear how your reading goes.

Meanwhile:

In the desert Satan and Jesus trade "it is written". He does an "it is written" to the guys in the temple forecourt. A few other places, mostly pointing to relevant prophesies. But he also did a good bit of "you have heard .... but I say ..."

He did NOT "always reference the scriptures" - and when he did he was often giving an unconventional interpretation. Teaching WITH authority - not just FROM authority.

I have no intention of dissing the scriptures - but we do not want to "wrest" the scriptures as in 2 Peter 3:16 We try to get it straight.