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Our bigotry comes from love, not hate!

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marshall
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22 Jul 2011, 12:22 am

emuman100 wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
emuman100 wrote:
So it's the Christians that are at fault here? What about Muslims or members of other religions that don't support gay marriage? They don't matter?
Christians are at fault for Christian churches being bigots. Muslims are at fault for Islam sects being bigots.


And athiests are not at fault for being bigoted against Christians and Muslims?


I realize some atheists are actually bigoted against faith in general and Christians and Muslims in particular.

As for me, I'm merely bigoted against the irrational idea that legalized homosexual marriage is a threat to heterosexual marriage. I am also bigoted against the idea that a consensual relationship of mutually loving partners can be considered wrong/evil/threatening. I'm also bigoted against the idea that gays are the cause of heterosexual infidelity, broken families, etc.



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22 Jul 2011, 12:49 am

marshall wrote:
Philologos wrote:
marshall wrote:
But - as you will have seen - people who rant tend to use poor reasoning and inordinate expressions. Which I do tend to care about.

I suspect you are mistaking the deliberate use of hyperbole, satire, and terms of ridicule for poor reasoning. Just because such things serve no function in your mind doesn't mean they serve no function in other minds.


Atheists at times go far beyond simple satire, and even attempt outright persecution. In all honesty I'd say Jews and Buddhists tend to be the most tolerant of other people's religious beliefs; followed by Christians and Atheists.

Radical Muslims have a habit of being more violent that Christians and Atheists.



marshall
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22 Jul 2011, 1:04 am

Inuyasha wrote:
Atheists at times go far beyond simple satire, and even attempt outright persecution.

I'll admit this forum has more than the standard sample cross section of physicalist curmudgeons. To claim any of them are advocating persecution is a bit of a stretch though.



Vexcalibur
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22 Jul 2011, 1:09 am

emuman100 wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
emuman100 wrote:
So it's the Christians that are at fault here? What about Muslims or members of other religions that don't support gay marriage? They don't matter?
Christians are at fault for Christian churches being bigots. Muslims are at fault for Islam sects being bigots.


And athiests are not at fault for being bigoted against Christians and Muslims?
Aw your privilege is showing.

How "bigoted" atheists are , for saying that religion shouldn't affect laws and that christians are being irrational to think otherwise. Calling them out for hating homosexuals. Wow, atheists are certainly bigots for bothering Christians and not letting them mold the law on their hateful, bigoted image.


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MarketAndChurch
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22 Jul 2011, 1:20 am

Amongst evangelical types who have thought it through, a large portion will arrive at the "Its not that I hate them, but rather, I hate the sin they engage in" type of mentality. That is for those who have gone through and thought about it, and they don't even represent a majority in Christian America. So yes, many of them do hate the Gay as a person and don't behave well or ethically around the ones they come across.

Christians are wrong to demand that the gay marry a straight. They need to acknowledge that while more people should marry and stay married, it is not for everyone, and that the torah's demands that we create a heterosexual society is built not on hatred for gay's, but the obvious fact that sexuality is not fixed, and that we then strive to have a culture where the definition of acceptable living cohabitations are limited to male and female (with exception for the gay). The perfect society has gays living together, but largely respecting and supporting the need to heterosexualize every generation that comes up(while leaving the gay option open for those who are rigidly homosexual.)

This is both lost on Christians and pro gay marriage types, they wage debates and arguments on a faulty premise that human beings sexuality is fixed, though there are some who I have come across who have acknowledged that sexuality is largely a social construct, but push the "I was born this way" argument anyways for its effectiveness as a political opinion.


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marshall
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22 Jul 2011, 1:37 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
This is both lost on Christians and pro gay marriage types, they wage debates and arguments on a faulty premise that human beings sexuality is fixed, though there are some who I have come across who have acknowledged that sexuality is largely a social construct, but push the "I was born this way" argument anyways for its effectiveness as a political opinion.

The problem with the social construct case is that it flies directly against first hand experience for most people. Also, sexual attraction often begins at an age where children aren't even fully aware of the "social constructs" that exist in the adult world.



emuman100
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22 Jul 2011, 1:38 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
Aw your privilege is showing.

How "bigoted" atheists are , for saying that religion shouldn't affect laws and that christians are being irrational to think otherwise. Calling them out for hating homosexuals. Wow, atheists are certainly bigots for bothering Christians and not letting them mold the law on their hateful, bigoted image.


Oh, but the Muslims affecting the laws in other countries, that is ok? It's ok for them to hate gays, but not for Christians?


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marshall
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22 Jul 2011, 1:54 am

emuman100 wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Aw your privilege is showing.

How "bigoted" atheists are , for saying that religion shouldn't affect laws and that christians are being irrational to think otherwise. Calling them out for hating homosexuals. Wow, atheists are certainly bigots for bothering Christians and not letting them mold the law on their hateful, bigoted image.


Oh, but the Muslims affecting the laws in other countries, that is ok? It's ok for them to hate gays, but not for Christians?


:wall:

Ummm... these atheists you complain about don't live in Muslim majority countries. If they did they might very well be complaining about Muslims affecting the laws, that is if the said Muslim country wasn't so backwards as to throw them in jail for doing so.



MarketAndChurch
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22 Jul 2011, 4:14 am

marshall wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
This is both lost on Christians and pro gay marriage types, they wage debates and arguments on a faulty premise that human beings sexuality is fixed, though there are some who I have come across who have acknowledged that sexuality is largely a social construct, but push the "I was born this way" argument anyways for its effectiveness as a political opinion.



The problem with the social construct case is that it flies directly against first hand experience for most people. Also, sexual attraction often begins at an age where children aren't even fully aware of the "social constructs" that exist in the adult world.


yes because the last 1000 years there has been a male-female bias, its inception owes much thanks to Judaism, and Christianity/Islam who would then take it into the world. Who we procreate with is the opposite sex but who we make love to is largely a function of culture.

The human beings sexuality is not that rigid, at all.


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22 Jul 2011, 8:21 am

If there was a proper separation of Church and State in regard to marriage, it wouldn't matter what Christians or any other religion thought about sexuality.



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22 Jul 2011, 9:48 am

It's just not right to get s**t on your dick.



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22 Jul 2011, 9:55 am

Vanderbilt wrote:
It's just not right to get sh** on your dick.


First an enema. But it is still a yucchy idea.

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Vexcalibur
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22 Jul 2011, 10:14 am

emuman100 wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Aw your privilege is showing.

How "bigoted" atheists are , for saying that religion shouldn't affect laws and that christians are being irrational to think otherwise. Calling them out for hating homosexuals. Wow, atheists are certainly bigots for bothering Christians and not letting them mold the law on their hateful, bigoted image.


Oh, but the Muslims affecting the laws in other countries, that is ok? It's ok for them to hate gays, but not for Christians?
Your main argument seems to be "At least we are not as bad as Muslims". From the civilized world I would expect something much better than just slightly "better than Muslims".

The straw man you are trying to build is that we only bash Christians for their bigotry , which is ridiculous. The main reason you don't notice when Muslims get bashed by humanists is because you don't care.

And you think you can call attention away of the OP. A Christian-written article about how they love homosexuals so much that they won't let them marry because all homosexual sex causes AIDS. And also bashing other Christians that seem ok with gay marriage because they don't want to be an annoyance. Among other very bigoted, condescending and plain wrong arguments used.


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22 Jul 2011, 10:41 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
marshall wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
This is both lost on Christians and pro gay marriage types, they wage debates and arguments on a faulty premise that human beings sexuality is fixed, though there are some who I have come across who have acknowledged that sexuality is largely a social construct, but push the "I was born this way" argument anyways for its effectiveness as a political opinion.



The problem with the social construct case is that it flies directly against first hand experience for most people. Also, sexual attraction often begins at an age where children aren't even fully aware of the "social constructs" that exist in the adult world.


yes because the last 1000 years there has been a male-female bias, its inception owes much thanks to Judaism, and Christianity/Islam who would then take it into the world. Who we procreate with is the opposite sex but who we make love to is largely a function of culture.

The human beings sexuality is not that rigid, at all.
...

Or maybe it's because this bias discriminated against gays and led to more of them hiding in the closet. The only thing social constructs influence is whether or not people curb these impulses. It makes no sense to say social constructs create these impulses. It's like saying a fast food commercial rewires your brain to feel hunger rather than appealing to hunger.



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22 Jul 2011, 11:11 am

Ragtime wrote:
The Bible never tells people to prevent others from sinning ...

Great point!

Ragtime wrote:
Should those who believe God ... attempt to influence people ...

That can be a tough question. Within my own home, I will be the one deciding how other people will act if they might wish to be here ...

Within our own communities, we have a collective option of doing at least a little of the same ...

But overall, I find it best to just let other people do as they please for as long as they might be able to stand it ... and to then suggest something different and share my own personal experience if they might ever care to hear it.


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22 Jul 2011, 12:32 pm

Ragtime wrote:
The Bible never tells people to prevent others from sinning, because such would be impossible. Should those who believe God and take Him at His Word, the Bible, attempt to influence people positively, and steer others toward the Bible, which will give those people greater understanding of both themselves and their Creator? Yes. Can -- and should -- righteousness of the heart be enforced by some people onto others? No, and no. Seeing people sin against God does grieve right-hearted Christians -- sometimes to the point of trying to interfere more than they really are able to, and called to. We are here to urge, not force, those who do not know God to get to know Him. Salvation is a free, universally-offered gift, but in every case it is either willingly received by a person, or it is rejected by them. There is the personal friendship that is only between an individual and God, and then there is the mutual social relating among people. The boundaries of each can be easily confused. As Luther wrote, Scripture is indeed clearer than its interpreters, so Christians, like non-Christians, are bound to err, and run with that error unaware, sometimes to the pain/damage of themselves and others. That's a sad thing, but the concept it shows is clear: The person, not God's message, is in error.

Really, the person who vexes non-Christians the most is God Himself. But it's easier to punish and blame His followers instead, so they opt for that. Everyone has their faults and makes mistakes, so anyone who singles out "Christians" specifically has a chip on his/her shoulder against Jesus, not people. Otherwise, they wouldn't blame Christians, specifically, for the errors of mankind, which in reality have universal pedigree.
Exactly.

Most folks on here who are apt to decry Christian 'bigotry' are running on the fumes of popular culture's perception of Christianity and rarely doing research for themselves. They rarely go to forums and talk with real Christians nor do they ever ask why they believe what they believe on homosexuality. It's simply 'Christians are bad for not supporting gay this or gay that." Even though we have a reason for not doing so.

Furthermore, the reason why Christians aren't pro-gay is because we believe that the behavior is one of the things that is spiritually lethal (actually, all sin is. But this issue is the most prominant right now.) Not because we don't love them or believe the person is worthless or disgusting or less then human. It is because we don't want them to suffer the ultimate consequence.

And you know what, I'm attracted to women. I am a woman who feels sexual desire towards other women. If I look at a sultry picture to long, I get 'those feelings.' If I look at a woman who I think might be lesbian, there is for a few seconds a wonder if she would find me attractive. I sometimes have to stop myself from fantisizing about what it would be like to kiss some attractive woman or to have sex with her.

But my ultimate desire is to please God, and not go by what secular society believes is 'right.' Because I would rather go by a God who loves me infinately, rather then go by 'the world' who only loves me conditionally and then mainly for 'tolerance browny points.' And it's hard for non-believers to understand that.


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