Is Judaism a religion AND an ethnicity?

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visagrunt
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17 Nov 2011, 2:14 pm

phil777 wrote:

Wait, so if Jews do not think like Gentiles, and Asperger people don't either, does that make a Jewish Asperger not able to think in the same way a Jew would nor would a Gentile? :p So basically, you get pretty lonely unless you associate with either group, no?

(And this is where it gets interesting waiting for Ruveyn or other jewish Aspies to speak up)

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

What kind of island do you think I live on? Just because I am gay, Jewish, Apsie and male does not mean that the only people I can relate to are others with precisely the same type of cognition.

But that does not go to the instant issue.

The problem I see with the OP question is that there is no framework around "ethnicity." If ethnicity is limited to narrow concepts of skin colour, then of course we aren't--but the question is inherently stupid. But if ethnicity is rooted in cultural diversity, then we most certainly have all the hallmarks of a distinct ethnic group.

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17 Nov 2011, 2:29 pm

visagrunt wrote:

phil777 wrote:

Then there is always the mater of DNA. As I recall, Jews share a common genetic makeup with Palestinians, Lebanese, Jordanians, and Syrians. It's just that Jews with European history can in part be counted in the R1a haplogroup, probably from intermixing with their Slavic neighbors in eastern Europe.
But the counter argument to the DNA point is that it only reveals who you're related to, and explains physical phenotypes. But DNA doesn't determine language, or cultural identity. Who you believe you are determines more about your identity than who your DNA says you are.

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ruveyn
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17 Nov 2011, 3:28 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

That would not apply to Jews who either converted to Judaism or are the children of converts. There are Jews of African descent who are as dark as night. There are blond, blue-eyed fair skin Jews. There are even Asiatic Jews. Being Jewish has nothing to do with genes and everything to do with values, principles, beliefs, customs and actions. Abraham from whom all Jews descend spiritually and some racially was born in Ur Kasdim which is in what is now Iraq, between the Tigris and Euphrates. He dwelt in that area until he "got the call" to pull up stakes and move to the land which was occupied at that time by the Canaanites.

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history_of_psychiatry
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17 Nov 2011, 5:08 pm

It is a religion. ANYONE can become a Jew and any Jew can become a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. If Jews are an ethnicity why do all look so different? Why are there Jews of all races?

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Cyanide
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17 Nov 2011, 5:32 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

Cyanide wrote:

Seeing as the original Jews were essentially breakaway Arabs who made their own racist religion, I'd say they qualify as an ethnic group.

How is taking steps to prevent someone running in with a bomb strapped to their chest, and blowing themselves up in a marketplace, racist?

What are you even talking about? Judaism was invented long before the bomb.

history_of_psychiatry wrote:

It is a religion. ANYONE can become a Jew and any Jew can become a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. If Jews are an ethnicity why do all look so different? Why are there Jews of all races?

The difference in looks is because of the diaspora and outbreeding.

Also, when's the last time you saw a Jewish missionary? It doesn't seem like they're too keen on letting in outsiders to me.

history_of_psychiatry
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17 Nov 2011, 5:59 pm

Cyanide wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Cyanide wrote:

Seeing as the original Jews were essentially breakaway Arabs who made their own racist religion, I'd say they qualify as an ethnic group.

How is taking steps to prevent someone running in with a bomb strapped to their chest, and blowing themselves up in a marketplace, racist?

What are you even talking about? Judaism was invented long before the bomb.

history_of_psychiatry wrote:

It is a religion. ANYONE can become a Jew and any Jew can become a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. If Jews are an ethnicity why do all look so different? Why are there Jews of all races?

The difference in looks is because of the diaspora and outbreeding.

Also, when's the last time you saw a Jewish missionary? It doesn't seem like they're too keen on letting in outsiders to me.

That was my point. The Jews originally were an ethnicity but after 2,000 years of outbreeding they are more of a religion. And while it is true that most Jews do not actively convert others, anyone can indeed convert to Judaism and thus become a Jew.

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Tequila
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17 Nov 2011, 6:50 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Of course we are all human beings together, but you guys have a strange religion. Believing in three gods and claiming to be monotheists.

What about us atheists? We don't believe in anything. Take our black pudding and our tins of lager away from us though and you'll have something to complain about.

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17 Nov 2011, 7:55 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

That is absolutely true.

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ruveyn
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17 Nov 2011, 8:45 pm

history_of_psychiatry wrote:

It is a religion. ANYONE can become a Jew and any Jew can become a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc. If Jews are an ethnicity why do all look so different? Why are there Jews of all races?

There is a common underlying culture and outlook that goes with the religion. It is much more than a set of theological doctrines.

ruveyn

Black_Zawisza
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17 Nov 2011, 9:42 pm

Judaism is not a religion and an ethnicity, but there is a religion called Judaism and a Jewish ethnicity.

imbatshitcrazy
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18 Nov 2011, 9:06 am

okay, let me ask you guys this. i'm an atheist from a jewish family. i renounced judaism over a year ago, but my mother still thinks that i'm jewish and won't take me seriously due to me being born to jewish parents. i keep telling her that judaism is only a religion and that i renounced it, therefore i am not jewish. i mention how can converts be jewish if it is an ethnicity and how christians and people of other religions don't look at atheists as part of their religion. how come i am not allowed to leave a religion i don't want to be a part of? simple. i can and did leave. she's convinced that it is an ethnicity, and that i can't get rid of it. long story short, am i still jewish or not?

pandabear wrote:

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

what about atheists who left the Jewish faith? can they ever truly be rid of it?

As I understand it, the only way they can truly rid themselves of Jewish identity is to convert to Christianity.

how can a supposed they get rid of their ethnicity by converting to another religion? simple. it is not an ethnoicity, it is only a religion. you have just proved my point.

JakobVirgil
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18 Nov 2011, 9:44 am

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

pandabear wrote:

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

what about atheists who left the Jewish faith? can they ever truly be rid of it?

As I understand it, the only way they can truly rid themselves of Jewish identity is to convert to Christianity.

how can a supposed they get rid of their ethnicity by converting to another religion? simple. it is not an ethnoicity, it is only a religion. you have just proved my point.

hehe welcome to the secular branch of Judaism we meet on . . . well we don't actually meet :oops:

.
You are in good company though.
[list nearly every famous Jew here]
there was a poster a while back that said that Judaism is a system for producing atheists.
it seems that you are the newest product of this tradition. Congrats.

btw your mother is right.
not because of her logic but because she is your mother. :wink:

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pandabear
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18 Nov 2011, 10:47 am

In that old movie Fiddler on the Roof, one of Tevye's daughter's runs off and marries a Christian. Her own family then shuns her and rejects her. That is where I got the idea that a Jew could lose his or her Jewish identity by marrying a Christian.

On the other hand, the daughter's children would still be considered Jewish, as Jewishness is regarded as inherited from the mother. Jewish identity must then reside in the mitochondrial DNA.

pandabear
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18 Nov 2011, 10:49 am

imbatshitcrazy wrote:

Have you ever read Portnoy's Complaint?

Gedrene
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18 Nov 2011, 11:20 am

Inuyasha wrote:

Cyanide wrote:

Seeing as the original Jews were essentially breakaway Arabs who made their own racist religion, I'd say they qualify as an ethnic group.

How is taking steps to prevent someone running in with a bomb strapped to their chest, and blowing themselves up in a marketplace, racist?

What the hell was that as an answer? He says that Judaism is a racist religion and then you talk about counter-terrorism.

imbatshitcrazy
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18 Nov 2011, 11:50 am

pandabear wrote:

Jewish identity must then reside in the mitochondrial DNA.

after hearing you guys talk, i have came to a decision. i honestly doubt that judaism is an ethnicity.

also, do you honestly believe a religion can be in your DNA?! :roll:

next, people are going to be telling me that christianity is an ethnicity :wall:

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