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Do Pro Israel American Christians care more about Israel the

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Lord_Gareth
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26 Mar 2012, 8:06 pm

Honestly, it was less an attack on Kraich's views than it was an expression of irritation at something. I've been hearing (both on this board and off it) the implication lately that everything 'good' in Western culture came out of Christianity and that we wouldn't have any of it without Christians (to the further tune of suggesting that all pagan practices Back In Da Day were soaked in baby guts and society-destroying debauchery), and when I saw a lesser version of that In Kraich's post I flipped to attack mode.


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ruveyn
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26 Mar 2012, 8:10 pm

abacacus wrote:

Israel. I have nothing at all against the Jews, but the land doesn't belong to them and the people who it * does* belong too are fighting to get it back. Israel as a country should not exist.


Land belongs to those who possess it and can prevent other from taking it away. It is a matter for force, not principle. The reasons why our American forbears came to own America is they came and killed the aboriginals. It is as simple as that. The Israelis own that land they are in the same way Americans own the land they are in. The only people who have a principled claim to land are the Dutch who got it from under the ocean. God made the Dutch but the Dutch made Holland.

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26 Mar 2012, 8:13 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:
Honestly, it was less an attack on Kraich's views than it was an expression of irritation at something. I've been hearing (both on this board and off it) the implication lately that everything 'good' in Western culture came out of Christianity and that we wouldn't have any of it without Christians (to the further tune of suggesting that all pagan practices Back In Da Day were soaked in baby guts and society-destroying debauchery), and when I saw a lesser version of that In Kraich's post I flipped to attack mode.


I'm not saying everything introduced by Christian culture has been good for the west. But it's indisputable, pagan Germanic religion was hardly preferable.
But to give at least pagan Germanic society a plug, a form of democracy had been practiced, where every free man of arms bearing age had a vote in the tribal Assembly. While the power eventually shifted into the hands of Germanic warlords with their own private armies, the death of free government among Barbarians seems to have corresponded with the adoption of Christianity.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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26 Mar 2012, 8:43 pm

ruveyn wrote:
abacacus wrote:

Israel. I have nothing at all against the Jews, but the land doesn't belong to them and the people who it * does* belong too are fighting to get it back. Israel as a country should not exist.


Land belongs to those who possess it and can prevent other from taking it away. It is a matter for force, not principle. The reasons why our American forbears came to own America is they came and killed the aboriginals. It is as simple as that. The Israelis own that land they are in the same way Americans own the land they are in. The only people who have a principled claim to land are the Dutch who got it from under the ocean. God made the Dutch but the Dutch made Holland.

ruveyn


1.YOUR American forbears. I'm Canadian. Still stole the land, but it's a matter of principal.

2.So what happens if the Chinese show up tomorrow and kick you out? Just gonna say "Ce la vies" and leave? I don't think so, you're gonna fight and scream saying they're stealing what's yours.

3.God made the Dutch.... oi *facepalm*. God made jack s**t. If you wanna argue that point, then lets see the proof.

4.Absolutely nothing you've said has done anything to convince that Israel is anything less than an abomination that must be destroyed.


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26 Mar 2012, 9:09 pm

abacacus wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
abacacus wrote:

Israel. I have nothing at all against the Jews, but the land doesn't belong to them and the people who it * does* belong too are fighting to get it back. Israel as a country should not exist.


Land belongs to those who possess it and can prevent other from taking it away. It is a matter for force, not principle. The reasons why our American forbears came to own America is they came and killed the aboriginals. It is as simple as that. The Israelis own that land they are in the same way Americans own the land they are in. The only people who have a principled claim to land are the Dutch who got it from under the ocean. God made the Dutch but the Dutch made Holland.

ruveyn


1.YOUR American forbears. I'm Canadian. Still stole the land, but it's a matter of principal.

2.So what happens if the Chinese show up tomorrow and kick you out? Just gonna say "Ce la vies" and leave? I don't think so, you're gonna fight and scream saying they're stealing what's yours.

3.God made the Dutch.... oi *facepalm*. God made jack sh**. If you wanna argue that point, then lets see the proof.

4.Absolutely nothing you've said has done anything to convince that Israel is anything less than an abomination that must be destroyed.


If they are destryed, every jewish citizen would probably be slaughtered though. I don't know a lot about this situation, but I don't see an israel loss ending without mass executions.



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26 Mar 2012, 9:13 pm

I'd be pretty ticked too if I got thrown out of my country by a bunch of a***holes who felt sorry for a group of people. Why would I feel sorry for them? They dug their own graves.


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26 Mar 2012, 9:36 pm

abacacus wrote:
I'd be pretty ticked too if I got thrown out of my country by a bunch of a***holes who felt sorry for a group of people. Why would I feel sorry for them? They dug their own graves.


I'd prefer to see a state with strong human rights succeed than see a country that's known for hating women and gays destroy it.



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26 Mar 2012, 10:01 pm

I agree, but it's not the issue at hand.


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27 Mar 2012, 1:48 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
I had stated how most mainline Protestants (myself included) do not believe the New Testament Israel is the political state of modern Israel, but rather Christianity (called supersuccessionism, or replacement theology).


Interesting. There are also some Hassidic Jews who don't believe the Old Testament Israel is the political state of modern Israel, but rather the kingdom of the messiah. They are in the minority, though.

Kraichgauer wrote:
I don't expect Jews to agree with our beliefs, but I suspect they are going to have more respect for us for being up front with our beliefs, rather than with a bunch of brown nosers who only befriend Jews today because they think it will hasten Christ's return. Mainline Protestants in modern times believe in extending friendship and justice toward Jews simply because it's the right thing to do, not because we expect to get something out of it.


I get the feeling most Pro-Israel Jews are suspicious of Evangelicals, but willing to accept any support they can get. At least, their motivations are largely written out on parchment, so it's easy enough to see where interests coincide, and where they might eventually come into conflict. I hope that mutual respect and interfaith cooperation will endure if/when the ulterior motives of evangelicals no longer exist. Historically, though, this cooperation tends to come and go in cycles, and it already seems to have diminished a bit since the death of Pope John Paul II. So, while I personally have more respect for those who strive for cooperation, others may be more inclined to trust the motivations they can see in writing.



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27 Mar 2012, 1:59 am

abacacus wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
abacacus wrote:

Israel. I have nothing at all against the Jews, but the land doesn't belong to them and the people who it * does* belong too are fighting to get it back. Israel as a country should not exist.


Land belongs to those who possess it and can prevent other from taking it away. It is a matter for force, not principle. The reasons why our American forbears came to own America is they came and killed the aboriginals. It is as simple as that. The Israelis own that land they are in the same way Americans own the land they are in. The only people who have a principled claim to land are the Dutch who got it from under the ocean. God made the Dutch but the Dutch made Holland.

ruveyn


1.YOUR American forbears. I'm Canadian. Still stole the land, but it's a matter of principal.


I don't really see how that's any different. IMO, if you come from America, Canada, Australia, etc... It's very hypocritical to criticize the Israelis on that basis.



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27 Mar 2012, 6:18 am

abacacus wrote:
[

1.YOUR American forbears. I'm Canadian. Still stole the land, but it's a matter of principal.



My forbears were Eastern European Jews. Litvaks and Galitzianers. None of my kin came ashore in North America prior to 1890. By that time the Indians were slaughtered in sufficient numbers and the land was taken away from them. It has nothing to do with me or my forebears.

And even the aboriginals were not innocent. Long before any white folks came to North America Indians were killing Indians and taking their land or more precisely their hunting "rights". So no Noble Savage horse poop please. Humans, from the dawn of our origins have been taking things by force from other humans. It is our nature.

ruveyn



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27 Mar 2012, 6:49 am

scubasteve wrote:
IMO, if you come from America, Canada, Australia, etc... It's very hypocritical to criticize the Israelis on that basis.


I think that most settler-descended people who live in America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand will unreluctantly tell you that their country was originally settled by Europeans in a cynical and unjust way. They accept that their country had an ignoble beginning, but now that it's here, they want to make the best of it.

By contrast, Zionism is still alive and well, and Zionism is nothing more than the old "Manifest Destiny" mindset reinvented for a modern age. Many Israelis haven't yet come to terms with what they have done. Eventually, there will be an awful lot of soul-searching.



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27 Mar 2012, 9:55 pm

mikecartwright wrote:
Do Pro Israel American Christians care more about Israel then they care about America ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism


:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

If most of this guy's threads get locked due to the obvious hate why is he not just banned.

I went through 5 pages of his posts/threads and he is on a bender of antisemitism.

Confusing to me???



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28 Mar 2012, 3:24 am

slave wrote:
mikecartwright wrote:
Do Pro Israel American Christians care more about Israel then they care about America ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism


:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

If most of this guy's threads get locked due to the obvious hate why is he not just banned.

I went through 5 pages of his posts/threads and he is on a bender of antisemitism.

Confusing to me???


I just went through them myself, and this thread does take on a different meaning. "Bender of antisemitism" sounds about right to me.

Still, I think it's worth keeping in mind that a lot of us here have challenges in life that we're not always sure how to deal with. I'm sure many of us can recall latching on to certain things as a "source" of frustrations that were really far more complex...

Maybe I'm misreading the situation, but if I'm not, I hope the OP will take advantage of the other parts of this site to seek advice on the important stuff.



slave
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30 Mar 2012, 3:55 pm

scubasteve wrote:
slave wrote:
mikecartwright wrote:
Do Pro Israel American Christians care more about Israel then they care about America ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism


:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

If most of this guy's threads get locked due to the obvious hate why is he not just banned.

I went through 5 pages of his posts/threads and he is on a bender of antisemitism.

Confusing to me???


I just went through them myself, and this thread does take on a different meaning. "Bender of antisemitism" sounds about right to me.

Still, I think it's worth keeping in mind that a lot of us here have challenges in life that we're not always sure how to deal with. I'm sure many of us can recall latching on to certain things as a "source" of frustrations that were really far more complex...
Maybe I'm misreading the situation, but if I'm not, I hope the OP will take advantage of the other parts of this site to seek advice on the important stuff.


Well said.



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10 Jan 2015, 6:44 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
The majority of americans are probably both "pro Israel"and are "christians", but obvously you mean the tiny splinter sect discussed in the Wiki article about "christian zionists" who are fanatatically into the zionist cause for religious reasons derived from christianity.

My guess is that most of that group are millenialists -in fact they not only believe we are in the End Times- they are actively trying to hasten the end times.

If you think that way then you dont care about your own 401K plan ( the worlds gonna end soon so why plan for retirement?).

So -yes- they probably dont care about the USA as such, nor even about Israel as such, except insofar as both counttries are instruments in this coming rapture-or armageddon, or whatever supposed to happen.


I overheard a conversation between two people who I've known for years in which they discussed how America is the Lost Tribe of Israel! I completely fail to understand their logic.