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How Trayvon Martin shooting is relevant to AS rights

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Dox47
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05 Apr 2012, 5:40 pm

You know Delaney, I'd be more than willing to engage with you if I thought for one minute that you'd stick to what I actually said and not your own projections/assumptions about me, refrain from personal insults and over the top hyperbole, and generally be honest, but we both know that's not going to happen. I've shrugged off a certain amount of abuse from you because I know you have issues beyond AS and can't help yourself to a certain extent, but even I have my limits as to what I'll tolerate.


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WilliamWDelaney
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05 Apr 2012, 6:18 pm

Dox47 wrote:
You know Delaney, I'd be more than willing to engage with you if I thought for one minute that you'd stick to what I actually said and not your own projections/assumptions about me, refrain from personal insults and over the top hyperbole, and generally be honest, but we both know that's not going to happen. I've shrugged off a certain amount of abuse from you because I know you have issues beyond AS and can't help yourself to a certain extent, but even I have my limits as to what I'll tolerate.
You tolerate me because we are both half-ghost.

No good can come of lawlessness. None.

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/03/20/de ... d-enacted/

article wrote:
According to state crime stats, Florida averaged 12 “justifiable homicide” deaths a year from 2000-2004. After “Stand your Ground” was passed in 2005, the number of “justifiable” deaths has almost tripled to an average of 35 a year, an increase of 283% from 2005-2010.



Dox47
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05 Apr 2012, 6:28 pm

article wrote:
According to state crime stats, Florida averaged 12 “justifiable homicide” deaths a year from 2000-2004. After “Stand your Ground” was passed in 2005, the number of “justifiable” deaths has almost tripled to an average of 35 a year, an increase of 283% from 2005-2010.


Means nothing without context, correlation not implying causation and all. Even if we assume that all the extra justifiable homicides are illegitimate, we have no way of knowing how many crimes in progress were prevented by self defense that never went lethal that was enabled by the law. For all we know, those extra 23 deaths might have been off-set by a greater number of would be victims who escaped harm. It's not a simple issue, even without the emotional component.

What is a half ghost by the way? I'm not familiar with the term in that usage.


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05 Apr 2012, 7:59 pm

Dox47 wrote:
What is a half ghost by the way? I'm not familiar with the term in that usage.


Perchance William is endavoring to discombobulate you with an identical parity of sesquipedalian loquaciousness not entirely dissimilar to that which he levied against my personage? :wink:



marshall
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05 Apr 2012, 8:05 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I agree with Stand Your Ground laws. It's about time somebody recognized that people should not be punished for defending themselves and fighting back. If someone comes up to you and wants to beat the crap out of you, you can fight back and not have to go to jail. Sounds like an awesome law to me. It protects the vulnerable and maybe bullies will think twice about coming up with their fists if they know such a law exists and they can get seriously injured or killed and the person defending themself will not face any penalties. It should be like that in schools, too. The person who tries to avoid the fight at all costs should never face punishment for simply standing their ground when under a threat.

The problem is the bullies will have guns too and they can go around intimidating and provoking whoever they want and then claim their "license to kill" when they finally get KTFO by some poor sap who was pushed to the brink and snapped. I'd be okay with the law if people interpreted it with common sense rather than granting immunity to some power-hungry prick who needlessly provoked a fight and then decided to use his weapon after he got knocked to the ground.



Tadzio
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05 Apr 2012, 8:13 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Here you go Tadzio, since your selective understanding of idioms seems to still be troubling you so much, go ahead and fill this out and submit it:

[img][800:1129]http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/9dcm5xqreo5xnf4/images/1-01ece685d9.jpg[/img]

I'm sure people will take your claims far more seriously if put into this form.


Hi Dox47,

Sorry to hear about your very frequent need to utilize your official bu******forms. I am very glad not to be your proctologist.

Your being so sure with your proffered advice has no foundation, as your astronomical submissions of your form hasn't seem to have had sufficient beneficial results for you to be noticeable of experiencing any benefit, other than more possible irritation for the attempted seemingly failing macho effect.

Your occult pain may be the top factor of irritability with you preferring SYG over sitting.

At least you should be well protected from any challenge to your record book standing of filing your SPUBBA complaints & remedial ointment volume discount forms.

Your SYG support will continue to fail after careful and rational review.

Tadzio



Dox47
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05 Apr 2012, 8:15 pm

^

You stay up all night thinking that one up?


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Tadzio
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05 Apr 2012, 8:33 pm

Dox47 wrote:
^

You stay up all night thinking that one up?


DREAM ON....! !! !

I have no desire for any tryst with you.

Tadzio



marshall
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05 Apr 2012, 8:36 pm

Dox47 wrote:
article wrote:
According to state crime stats, Florida averaged 12 “justifiable homicide” deaths a year from 2000-2004. After “Stand your Ground” was passed in 2005, the number of “justifiable” deaths has almost tripled to an average of 35 a year, an increase of 283% from 2005-2010.


Means nothing without context, correlation not implying causation and all. Even if we assume that all the extra justifiable homicides are illegitimate, we have no way of knowing how many crimes in progress were prevented by self defense that never went lethal that was enabled by the law. For all we know, those extra 23 deaths might have been off-set by a greater number of would be victims who escaped harm. It's not a simple issue, even without the emotional component.

What is a half ghost by the way? I'm not familiar with the term in that usage.


I'm still interested in how many bar brawls and incited altercations lead to a "justifiable" homicide cases. I've read several such cases and to me even one is too much. Such ridiculous cases are unheard of in non-SYG states.



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06 Apr 2012, 8:43 am

I don't even know where to start with this or if I should.
We've been over this and over this and over this general topic in the five years that I've been here and all this latest SYG craze boils down to is another approach into the "guns-r-bad" discussion.
"OMG we've had a wrongful death!! !! !! We've got to change the law for everyone's' own good!! !! !!
BTW This is all before the trial, of course........
Of course, they don't take into account all the "wrongful deaths" carried out by the predators of society. The ones where a corner store is robbed and anyone in the store is executed, someone's grandmother getting mugged by some turd and dying as a result, someones wife getting raped then strangled while jogging in the park, kids getting abducted and found dead later, the active shooter that decides to go on a spree, etc...
Do I need to find links to cases of wrongful deaths along these lines and how many?
No, this is all irrelevant and they don't want to talk about that. Only the few examples of something like SYG gone wrong by the hand of a few individuals is what they want to focus on.

Let's help the predators, under the pretense of public safety as always, and change the laws to make their hunting grounds less risky :D. Hey, they have rights!
Once SYG is defeated then on to CCW licensing, assault weapons :roll: , handguns, rifles, shotguns, bows and arrows, knives, sharp sticks, rock throwing, etc.....

This IS the ultimate goal of the attackers of SYG laws, period.



Raptor
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06 Apr 2012, 8:54 am

Quote:
How Trayvon Martin shooting is relevant to AS rights.


Oh, and it looks like by opposing SYG we are helping our own kind.
Gee, let's all jump on the bandwagon to prevent the genocide of us Aspergerians by campaigning against SYG :D .

:roll:



AspieRogue

06 Apr 2012, 9:35 am

Raptor wrote:
I don't even know where to start with this or if I should.
We've been over this and over this and over this general topic in the five years that I've been here and all this latest SYG craze boils down to is another approach into the "guns-r-bad" discussion.
"OMG we've had a wrongful death!! !! !! We've got to change the law for everyone's' own good!! !! !!
BTW This is all before the trial, of course........
Of course, they don't take into account all the "wrongful deaths" carried out by the predators of society. The ones where a corner store is robbed and anyone in the store is executed, someone's grandmother getting mugged by some turd and dying as a result, someones wife getting raped then strangled while jogging in the park, kids getting abducted and found dead later, the active shooter that decides to go on a spree, etc...
Do I need to find links to cases of wrongful deaths along these lines and how many?
No, this is all irrelevant and they don't want to talk about that. Only the few examples of something like SYG gone wrong by the hand of a few individuals is what they want to focus on.

Let's help the predators, under the pretense of public safety as always, and change the laws to make their hunting grounds less risky :D. Hey, they have rights!
Once SYG is defeated then on to CCW licensing, assault weapons :roll: , handguns, rifles, shotguns, bows and arrows, knives, sharp sticks, rock throwing, etc.....

This IS the ultimate goal of the attackers of SYG laws, period.





A-MEN my brotha :!:


8)



marshall
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06 Apr 2012, 10:35 am

Raptor wrote:
Let's help the predators, under the pretense of public safety as always, and change the laws to make their hunting grounds less risky :D. Hey, they have rights!
Once SYG is defeated then on to CCW licensing, assault weapons :roll: , handguns, rifles, shotguns, bows and arrows, knives, sharp sticks, rock throwing, etc.....

This IS the ultimate goal of the attackers of SYG laws, period.

And you accuse others of emotional hysterics. :roll: You're just as bad as WD in the hyperbole department.

I actually have a liberal/libertarian stance regarding the second amendment. I'm not a "OMG guns are bad! ban them all" type. I could care less what weapons people choose to own. I have a problem with people thinking they have the right to use them to play cop or otherwise go looking for trouble. I would even be okay with the SYG law if there were exemptions from immunity to prosecution and presumption of innocence in the case of mutually provoked altercations and people who've gone around looking for trouble. I also have a problem with people who think they have the right to appoint themselves, under the guise of "self-defense", to the role of judge, jury, and executioner, and do target practice on fleeing unarmed thieves. Next ornery old f***s will be shooting juvenile punks for vandalizing their mailbox or TPing their tree.



WilliamWDelaney
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06 Apr 2012, 12:08 pm

Dox47 wrote:
article wrote:
Means nothing without context, correlation not implying causation and all.
Correlation alone does not imply causation. However, in this case, there is a control group, an experimental group, an independent variable and a dependent variable.

States that did not have a SYG law serve as a control group. Although it is conceivable that crime rates would increase suddenly in Florida but not in surrounding states, it is nevertheless valid to assume that relatively little will have changed in Florida that did not change in the surrounding states that did not have a SYG law in effect.

http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/dpps/news/s ... 0_18945676

Joe Palazzolo and Rob Barry for WSJ wrote:
In Texas and Georgia, such cases nearly doubled and in Florida, they nearly tripled. Meanwhile, in states that saw no change in their self-defense laws, justifiable homicides reported to the FBI stayed nearly flat after a slight uptick in the middle decade.
The fact of the matter is that there is a clear causal connection between SYG laws and killings being reported as "justifiable homicide." It does not require very much sophistication to figure out WHY.

However, if there is a correlation between SYG and homicide in general, there isn't enough as far as I can tell to start thinking about causality. After 2005, according to this statistics page, there was a noticeable bump, but it could as easily have been due to other factors.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/flcrime.htm

As you can see, there was an equally dramatic downward tick in 2010 at around the same time we started seeing a national trend of reduced crime. Although it would be prudent to keep an eye on the relationship between SYG laws and homicide rates, there just isn't any real evidence on the matter.

Therefore, although SYG doesn't appear to have had a clear impact on the general homicide rate, the reality is that too many people seem to exploiting the SYG law, claiming "self-defense" in situations that could have and ought to have been averted.

Quote:
What is a half ghost by the way?
Nothing, really. Wavelengths. When you are talking to somebody over a period of time, you start getting a sense of hearing certain "wavelengths" in how they put their thoughts together and put their thoughts into words. There is nothing magical or mysterious about it, even though it does seem like certain people can communicate things to each other implicitly that they can't get across in that way to others. It's just a name that I have for a certain set of wavelengths, and I get it from subjective impression. That's all I meant. It was fairly inconsequential.



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06 Apr 2012, 12:35 pm

marshall wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Let's help the predators, under the pretense of public safety as always, and change the laws to make their hunting grounds less risky :D. Hey, they have rights!
Once SYG is defeated then on to CCW licensing, assault weapons :roll: , handguns, rifles, shotguns, bows and arrows, knives, sharp sticks, rock throwing, etc.....

This IS the ultimate goal of the attackers of SYG laws, period.

And you accuse others of emotional hysterics. :roll: You're just as bad as WD in the hyperbole department.

I actually have a liberal/libertarian stance regarding the second amendment. I'm not a "OMG guns are bad! ban them all" type. I could care less what weapons people choose to own. I have a problem with people thinking they have the right to use them to play cop or otherwise go looking for trouble. I would even be okay with the SYG law if there were exemptions from immunity to prosecution and presumption of innocence in the case of mutually provoked altercations and people who've gone around looking for trouble. I also have a problem with people who think they have the right to appoint themselves, under the guise of "self-defense", to the role of judge, jury, and executioner, and do target practice on fleeing unarmed thieves. Next ornery old f**** will be shooting juvenile punks for vandalizing their mailbox or TPing their tree.


Quote:
And you accuse others of emotional hysterics. :roll: You're just as bad as WD in the hyperbole department.

So I guess it's just my imagination that the Trayvon Martin case is being played as justification for repealing SYG. Seems like every time someone is unfortunate enough to be at the receiving end of a bullet, occasioned by some freedom or other, that they become the poster child for more gun control. It sure didn't take The Brady Campaign long to capitalize on this. Within the space of about a day or so Trayvon Martin was the battle cry for more "reasonable gun control" and George Zimmerman was portrayed as the typical NRA member. I went to their website so i know what I'm talking about. Gotta milk the emotional effect for all it's worth no matter what. This is not the first time that the Brady bunch has gone after gun rights under the guise of public safety and used some misforunate victim as a poster boy.

Quote:
I actually have a liberal/libertarian stance regarding the second amendment. I'm not a "OMG guns are bad! ban them all" type. I could care less what weapons people choose to own.

Sure, as long as there are reasonable common sense gun laws, eh? As if we don't already have too many of them.

Quote:
I have a problem with people thinking they have the right to use them to play cop or otherwise go looking for trouble. I would even be okay with the SYG law if there were exemptions from immunity to prosecution and presumption of innocence in the case of mutually provoked altercations and people who've gone around looking for trouble. I also have a problem with people who think they have the right to appoint themselves, under the guise of "self-defense", to the role of judge, jury, and executioner, and do target practice on fleeing unarmed thieves.


People pretending to be cops is a rare scenario. But hey, lets change the law anyways. And next time someone uses poor discretion, yet within the current traffic laws, and gets someone killed let's reduce the speed limit to 35 mph on ALL the freeways.

Quote:
Next ornery old f**** will be shooting juvenile punks for vandalizing their mailbox or TPing their tree.

And you say I'm emotionally hysterical.



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06 Apr 2012, 1:42 pm

Yes, I do hope that SYG is modified or repealed. I have doubts it will be. Yes, I would also like tighter regulations on guns. I'd like universal background checks so that private sales were also subject to a background check and, if required to make that work better, gun registration as well.

It wouldnt be easy to get done but if we had that system today, we'd be safer. The only real argument against it is that NRA types believe that the government will then come to your door and take your weapons. From a safety standpoint, it's clearly better to physically bar dangerous people from most gun sources and not just make it an additional charge later if we happen to catch them with it. If they are all forced into an untraceable black market then prices will rise at least.