The Zeitgeist Movement - Give me your best shot.

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Hunh, the post doesn't make you seem insane. The issue is that demand is used in an unusual way. The demand curve in microecon is always a function of price, and that's because when something is just priced at 0, people often don't even care about wasting it or not. So, we don't care about wasting air, so we use it to whatever extreme we'd like. But, things involving actual resources, like cotton, metal, silicon, time, etc, sound terrible to waste.

I think I follow. I think I basically agree. I mean, the RBE idea tends to rely on the idea that demand can be controlled, but.... demand probably cannot be controlled so easily without a totalitarian solution. I mean, some people will just hoard shoes. I don't know why, but they will. Some people will just lose tons of socks. It's not that they don't like socks, but they don't care because there is no cost to losing socks. So, if price is zero, a large amt of waste will occur. Unless supply is massively overbuilt, to the point where even if people just started burning clothes for the hell of it(and some might as some form of social gesture) that nothing will be impacted, we'll have an issue. The RBE crowd will talk about human goodness, but I don't think waste means you're a bad person anyway. I've wasted lots of things simply because they were free and because I could request as much as I wanted. I don't think anything but totalitarianism is likely to prevent this from happening.

The issue with the RBE is that population control will probably have to be used. As long as population growth is positive, the steady-state economy can't work because the resources required will change. So, there will be policies controlling how many children every person can have. There have to be. There will probably even have to be mandatory abortions, just like China, otherwise people will just screw and not care. (AAU may dispute this, but let's be serious on the actual consequences) I don't think most people would be willing to accept this unless grossly necessary. Christianity is definitely opposed to these population control policies(given Christian opposition to abortion, Catholic opposition to birth control, and perhaps even the reading of some fundamentalists of the verse "Be fruitful and multiply"), and that may cause political strife.

Nope.



Exactly. Which is why theres nothing in our material which suggests totalitarianism



If you don't know why then how can you say people will in an RBE?



Now you're just being ridiculous since you don't even grasp the access model that an RBE uses.



Not relevant to an RBE



Nope, again, you don't grasp our materials. That's why you cover yourself with the strategic word of "probably". It enables you to make statements without actually knowing what you're talking about.



So tell me, what motivates exponential population growth in an RBE?



First off, show me where in our materials we even imply this, second you're ignoring the fact that populations with a higher standard of living do not overpopulate. Its the poorer sections of society that overpopulate. Raise the standard of living, and you erradicate the desire to overpopulate.



That's fine coz it won't be imposed.



Christian philosophy originated at a time of severe deprivation and low life-expectancy. We now live over twice as long than in the times of over-procreation were encouraged by the church.

As I suspected, you still have no grasp of the RBE ideology.

Would you like links to every discussion I have ever had about this topic, including the one with you? Furthermore what you said in that initial discussion is completely contradictory to the opinions on space colonization you express here.

You need to be consistent. When people point out your inconsistencies you say something along the lines of "my views are not representative of the whole". Yet when people criticize the views of TZM as a whole you happily assume the role of representative. You obviously want to have your cake and eat it too but don't pretend nobody notices this



Wrong. I haven't done that any more than I have "asked you fallacious questions", "made assumptions about you" or "threatened you". If you want to discuss something stop with the insane accusations



Okay?



I did not say anything about the biosphere. When I said "Earth" I was specifically noting Human society



Humanity changes, but the radical change you speak of won't simply be voted in. It is not cynicism, it is realism, to posit that such a transition would either be very gradual or the result of an extreme event

I would like links to actual statements I've made where I have expressed unequivocable "hostility" towards space colonisation a you have claimed. It shouldn't be that hard to back this accusation up with evidence. That is unless you've made a baseless claim.



Actually no. I state I'm not representative of TZM's tenets when people try to claim I am.



I dare say you don't consider yourself "representative" of the supposition of gravity, but if someone tries to argue to you that if you let go of a golfball it will float upwards instead of fall to the ground then you can correct them without having to be "representative" of gravity, correct? Same thing here. So you've made a strawman argument here.



Like AG you seem to "lack self-reflection" as you put it, and think that what you say is true purely because you say it and what anyone else says regardless of what it is, is automatically false purely because you don't believe it.



Nice refutation. lol



But Earth is not comprised of only 1 singular ingrediant, the human species. Humanity doesn't even form a majority of what comprises this planet as a whole. You have used the wrong terminology.



I never implied that the necessary change required to be "voted in". Another strawman. So as per usual you are bringing no substance to the discussion on the topic that I created this thread for in favour of mostly wanting to discuss me. Which makes your arguments ad hominem. How sad.

@JanuaryMan, Weren't you leaving this thread for good? If you're gonna contribute, keep it relevant please.

Pretty much

Well. I left the thread for good. Now I'm back for bad! See what I did there? What can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment. Plus I can't afford any more alcohol til Friday so I need an alternative for killing brain cells. Anyways, I digress. On with the Brainless Steel show:

I'm going to ask some questions, and expect some answers. This thread is long overdue some of them, so here goes:

-*What machines will be used in the first stages of the Resource Based Economy in Project Venus' test city?
-*What contributions are being made by scientists and intellectuals already onboard with TZM and PV?
-*How would you ideally transition from Capitalism and Corporatism into RBE?
---*Sub question: How realistic do you think this transition would be?
-*What work would you be willing to do to make this RBE a reality?
---*Sub question: What can you do right now?
-*The test city will require donations and money of some kind. There is no disputing it. But the question is...how much?
---*Sub question: Who is going to front all this money before the transition, and how?
-*What failsafes would be put into place to protect the RBE from being sabotaged or destroyed by Capitalist crooks that fear the changes and loss of power?

No problem, unlike you, I am willing to back up what I say (and not by referencing myself )

[img][800:279]http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb471/d_vigilans/spd.png[/img]

[img][800:245]http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb471/d_vigilans/spc.png[/img]

Here are two choice examples, where you immediately lay into androbot1984 and I with your typically hostile and condescending attitude, shortly afterwards accusing me of hostility for some reason. The second one is literally contradictory to what you stated in this thread about space colonization being within TZM's goals. It was not hard to find, considered almost every thread you start gets locked when the mods tire of your personal attacks and other BS immaturity. I'm looking forward to the mental gymnastics show you are going to put on to weasel out of this one



Do not flatter yourself, nobody here thinks you are an expert in anything. However, you are more than happy to act in such a manner yet deny it when people call you on it. If you actually were an official representative in any capacity, you are doing a piss poor job of promoting your ideals. Some people here might even oppose them based solely on your behavior.



No, you make it clear through your attitude and posting habits you consider yourself the only expert available here on the subject and you ridicule or belittle anybody who disagrees with you. In other words, you have zero substance and a lot of temper



Stop f*****g around, this has nothing to do with what I said. I will ask you again: please point out where I asked you fallacious questions, made assumptions about you, or threatened you. Especially this last part, this is a serious allegation. Either back it up in the next post you make to me or I will contact a moderator for this slanderous and utterly untrue accusation



There was nothing to refute, it was a poorly structured paragraph that had nothing to do with my post



You are now engaged in a tangential and irrelevant direction. I am talking about human society, not whether plankton, foxes or trees will change to support your sociopolitical ideas.



So how do you suggest your changes take place? Straw man, ad hominem? What is the matter with you? I know you never said it needed to be voted in, now you are just wasting time by cherry picking my posts for things you can make an easy fallacy with

Why don't you back up your statements and accusations against me instead of f*****g around. Either you really are intellectually bankrupt or your purpose here is self-gratification through trolling people who make the mistake of engaging with you

This below is from another thread you ended up getting locked with your behavior. Orwell and Calavera are right on the ball about you

*mock salute* Sir yes sir! lol



Finally, thankyou.



What kind of "machines" do you mean exactly?



Along with what I have already mentioned I don't know off the top of my head. Ask the Technology Team.



I notice that you have stated "ideally" so this answer isn't asking necessarily for a realistic answer. Peter Joseph has outlined in great detail what an "idealistic" transition would entail in his radio lecture entitled "The Transition" at the following link:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/zmglobal/2010/10/27/102710--peter-joseph-8-lectures-4-the-transition



Ask any engineer why any space travel project has 3 of everything. Its an engineering concept called "redundancy". Its the same reason why you have two lungs and two kidneys. Myself and Doug Mallette also explored why redundancy would be used in an RBE in my podcast interview with him.

So yea, some of those questions I have already answered even on this thread. Are you gonna absorb the answers this time?

The guy asked you very relevant questions and you still have to be snide in the end

I'll write up a post again in a little while. I had pretty much some of the answers already but I was testing you.
I have things to tend to first before I contribute something more useful. What I will say is a speaker without substance is only that, a speaker.

A speaker's tactic when their words lack substance is to keep speaking and refuting things over and over with hostility and aggression until no one else says anything or gives up challenging that opinion. In your OWN 30 minute lecture you questioned behaviour like this, yet you exhibit it yourself. That's not very promising when you encourage people to ascend to a higher state of thinking and cooperation when you can't even do those things yourself.

I'm not suprised that you would side with a blatant ad hominem attack. And I'M supposedly the troll here. lol Howabout you just drop the angle that you're trying to pursue about me, and concentrate on the issue at hand? Even Januaryman has dropped the ad hom crusade and started asking relevant questions. Why can't you? Please, if you want to contribute, please, keep it relevant to the topic this thread was started for.

Why do you feel the need to test me?



Noted. And I thank you for finally asking some relevant questions.



That's the first time I've heard that as a definition of "speaker". Coz I would normally call that behaviour "pity-trolling".



Considering that my lecture was a lecture and not a 2-way discussion I can't see how I was talking down anyone's opinion, when the format was one person talking for 30 minutes. That is what made it a lecture.

However if you mean my behaviour on this thread, I refer you to any comments where someone has actually engaged me in a mature manner, with no logical fallacies and making good points. Notice that I have actually conceded to their points, agreed with them, and considered a change of my own mind and ideas dependant upon the strength of the logic they display.

Calling out blatantly illogical arguments does not constitute domineering behaviour.

The vast majority of your post is exactly the BS I expected, but this is really the only part that matters:

Claiming they exist without even showing what they are is not "calling out". Simply put, you are a liar.

I can see you still can't keep your cool. I appreciate you whittled it down.



Oh I'm sorry, shall I include a dictionary definition of each logical fallacy everytime I call you out on them? lol I would have thought you would know what an ad hom is, and what a strawman is.

And calling me a liar, is yet another ad hom. I can understand your compulsion to use these rhetorical devices though. Coz its much, much easier to call someone a liar, than go through the effort of explaining how and why they are. That's the difference.

So, with that said, please give it up. Instead of coming to a thread that is asking for questions, to attack the person themselves, howabout you either drop the intellectually dishonest behaviour and start asking relevant questions, as per the whole point of this thread, or leave. No-one's keeping you here. And your continuous presence on this thread posting comments that are irrelevant will just waste even more of your time.