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AspieOtaku
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08 Nov 2012, 12:59 am

How do we know were not in hell already? If hell exists were probably already in it that's why the majority of the populous treat us as subhumans.


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MarketAndChurch
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08 Nov 2012, 1:33 am

thomas81 wrote:
They get a hard time over many beliefs but the mormon model of the afterlife seems the fairest.

Instead of just heaven and hell, there are actually 4 different levels of reward and punishment. To put that into perspective, the third from highest is equivalent to being alive on Earth with the lowest level being 'hell'. Which makes more sense, how and where do you draw the line between deserving of eternal suffering and deserving of eternal paradise?


I've always thought of the Mormon view as unfair. That those who are rotton to others during this lifetime, cruel, torturous, will get to live eternal life out on earth? Where is the fairness in that?

And what if there is no heaven, hell, or God. What is the argument then against not doing whatever you want because you've only got one life to live? Why care for your fellow man if you have all the power and there is nothing or no one to get in your way of having a good time, or leading a genocide?

If heaven and hell are tools to get people to behave ethically during this lifetime, what is the incentive to aspire for anything higher if you are quite contempt with the human experience, and life on earth? I ask not knowing the answer personally, and I do not fully know the Mormon view.


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08 Nov 2012, 2:50 am

Hell?

I'm not convinced there is a "biblical Hell" of any kind, and nothing short of a trip there would ever convince me otherwise.

I guess "hell" is in the eye of be holder then, but there's no sense in fearing something that was created in one's own mind (it's funny, because the mind is where the majority of fears come from in the first place).



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08 Nov 2012, 3:26 am

UncleShiloh wrote:
Actually the agnostics (real atheists do not exist) should be the ones who need to be afraid of not being correct. Famous wager by our old pal Pascal. If Christians are wrong they lose an immoral life. If the the agnostics are wrong they go to hell..lol. Smart money is on the Christians in other words.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager


can't go to a place that doesn't exist. "smart?" You think it's smart to live your life according to a really old rulebook written a long time ago by a bunch of crazy old men based on the fear of being sent to a "lake of fire" if you don't?

Tell me something... If we're all god's children and we're all loved by god and all that nonsense, why does the bible seem to be written to suggest that women are meant to be servants to men? Why should anyone be anyone else's slave? It also suggests that humans are really special compared to other animals, and that the other animals are just there for us to eat and do whatever we want to with. That's inconsistent with a loving god who loves all his children equally. And then the idea that childbirth is painful because eve ate an apple... I fail to see how believing in that and living your life by the book that claims those things is "smart." I won't be motivated by fear, but you're welcome to be.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnD-a0cDDOE[/youtube]



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08 Nov 2012, 8:01 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
They get a hard time over many beliefs but the mormon model of the afterlife seems the fairest.

Instead of just heaven and hell, there are actually 4 different levels of reward and punishment. To put that into perspective, the third from highest is equivalent to being alive on Earth with the lowest level being 'hell'. Which makes more sense, how and where do you draw the line between deserving of eternal suffering and deserving of eternal paradise?


I've always thought of the Mormon view as unfair. That those who are rotton to others during this lifetime, cruel, torturous, will get to live eternal life out on earth? Where is the fairness in that?

Not on Earth, its the Jehovah's witnesses that believe we return to the physical Earth. According to the mormon faith, there are 3 'kingdoms' of glory.... The celestial kingdom (Heaven, basically), the Terrestial Kingdom (not as good as heaven but still a bit better than what we know) and then the Telestial Kingdom which is not Earth but similar to in terms of joy/suffering. The Mormons refer to Hell as 'Outer Darkness'. This is where the cruel and torturous will probably end up. According to the mormons.

Mormons believe that the souls relegated to the telestial and terrestial kingdoms while not actually tortured in the practical sense, will be 'punished' through knowing they missed out on the celestial kingdom.

Although if Mitt Romney, David Archuletta and the Osmonds are going to be there for eternity, how much that constitutes punishment is entirely subjective.



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08 Nov 2012, 8:17 am

Hell? What's that? :lol:


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08 Nov 2012, 8:35 am

I'm hoping to "inherit the earth" along with the other meek people.
Sounds lovely just to remain on a less-populated Earth where no one is getting in anyone else's business.



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08 Nov 2012, 9:39 am

Jon Popper ~ Bules Traveler wrote:
But the possibility exists no matter how scary it may seem
That paradise was once the world and it wasn't just a dream
The earth was our heaven and we did not know

There were rules for us to break
And maybe now we'll find out too late
What a clever hell we can make

Whoops, whoops, whoops, whoops


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08 Nov 2012, 11:00 am

Atheist huh? Lets start down the road. Could there perhaps exist a force in the Universe of which are you currently unaware? Have you toured the Universe to make sure the unknown force does not exist? No...don't imagine you have took the tour. The strongest a person can sink into unbelief is Agnosticism...meaning a person does not know what they believe and are too lazy find out. If you scratch a self proclaimed atheist..what can usually be found is a person who is mad at God about something. Usually over the death of a Loved One or mistreatment as a child. Its hard for an abused child to embrace a Loving Heaven Father when the only pattern they have for comparison is an abusive parent..guardian etc.

LKL wrote:
I'm an atheist, so, no.



08 Nov 2012, 11:01 am

Separation from God.

Shatbat wrote:
Hell? What's that? :lol:



08 Nov 2012, 11:30 am

Glad to hear you are a seeker of knowledge. Understanding the mysteries of God require starting small and growing. Much like a seed in the plant kingdom or a baby on the human level. Nearly all of Creation operates on the same principle. Before progressing on to a Harvard level of knowledge and answering the exotic questions posed requires the seeker to first get past Kindergarten. Here we start with Kindergarten. It takes only the use of two mundane body parts to get enrolled. Those required parts are the heart (mind) and the mouth.:

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Concentrate on getting that task under your belt and God will teach you all kinds of cool new stuff about which you are obviously curious.






DerStadtschutz wrote:
UncleShiloh wrote:
Actually the agnostics (real atheists do not exist) should be the ones who need to be afraid of not being correct. Famous wager by our old pal Pascal. If Christians are wrong they lose an immoral life. If the the agnostics are wrong they go to hell..lol. Smart money is on the Christians in other words.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager


can't go to a place that doesn't exist. "smart?" You think it's smart to live your life according to a really old rulebook written a long time ago by a bunch of crazy old men based on the fear of being sent to a "lake of fire" if you don't?

Tell me something... If we're all god's children and we're all loved by god and all that nonsense, why does the bible seem to be written to suggest that women are meant to be servants to men? Why should anyone be anyone else's slave? It also suggests that humans are really special compared to other animals, and that the other animals are just there for us to eat and do whatever we want to with. That's inconsistent with a loving god who loves all his children equally. And then the idea that childbirth is painful because eve ate an apple... I fail to see how believing in that and living your life by the book that claims those things is "smart." I won't be motivated by fear, but you're welcome to be.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnD-a0cDDOE[/youtube]



08 Nov 2012, 11:35 am

Unless you can show us where you took that tour of the Universe without locating God..you cant be an atheist at all. Incoherent rambling about pink unicorns dont count. Lets see some photos..newspaper clippings etc.

TallyMan wrote:
UncleShiloh wrote:
Atheist huh? Lets start down the road. Could there perhaps exist a force in the Universe of which are you currently unaware? Have you toured the Universe to make sure the unknown force does not exist? No...don't imagine you have took the tour. The strongest a person can sink into unbelief is Agnosticism...meaning a person does not know what they believe and are too lazy find out. If you scratch a self proclaimed atheist..what can usually be found is a person who is mad at God about something. Usually over the death of a Loved One or mistreatment as a child. Its hard for an abused child to embrace a Loving Heaven Father when the only pattern they have for comparison is an abusive parent..guardian etc.


Rubbish! I can't be mad at a meme - a non-existent figment of imagination. I'm not an atheist because I'm mad at flying pink unicorns or any other make-believe character.



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10 Nov 2012, 6:13 pm

yes



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10 Nov 2012, 6:17 pm

Fnord wrote:


I went to "The school from hell"



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10 Nov 2012, 7:01 pm

Hell is life sometimes. But could be death as well.
Yes, I'm afraid of future. After death, well, hell knows what it will be.
Let's hope there's nothing but heavenly rest.


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MarketAndChurch
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11 Nov 2012, 2:45 am

thomas81 wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
They get a hard time over many beliefs but the mormon model of the afterlife seems the fairest.

Instead of just heaven and hell, there are actually 4 different levels of reward and punishment. To put that into perspective, the third from highest is equivalent to being alive on Earth with the lowest level being 'hell'. Which makes more sense, how and where do you draw the line between deserving of eternal suffering and deserving of eternal paradise?


I've always thought of the Mormon view as unfair. That those who are rotton to others during this lifetime, cruel, torturous, will get to live eternal life out on earth? Where is the fairness in that?

Not on Earth, its the Jehovah's witnesses that believe we return to the physical Earth. According to the mormon faith, there are 3 'kingdoms' of glory.... The celestial kingdom (Heaven, basically), the Terrestial Kingdom (not as good as heaven but still a bit better than what we know) and then the Telestial Kingdom which is not Earth but similar to in terms of joy/suffering. The Mormons refer to Hell as 'Outer Darkness'. This is where the cruel and torturous will probably end up. According to the mormons.

Mormons believe that the souls relegated to the telestial and terrestial kingdoms while not actually tortured in the practical sense, will be 'punished' through knowing they missed out on the celestial kingdom.

Although if Mitt Romney, David Archuletta and the Osmonds are going to be there for eternity, how much that constitutes punishment is entirely subjective.



Well that's how I was taught it as well, it's just been so long since I've met with the missionaries from the church.

I still don't think that's fair.

And Earth is quite beautiful, I won't miss out on anything to be honest, especially if I get to live forever here, I'll ressurrect Alexandria and Rome and Paris, just because I can.

And even if the Mormon belief is real, I'll be able to reform easily in that middle-world between this one and the 3 kingdoms.


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