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Tequila
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17 Nov 2012, 4:00 pm

GGPViper wrote:

blackelk wrote:

This. The amount of pure vitriol that Israel attracts boggles my mind. Antisemitism is so prominent on the internet as well. I have been on a plethora of forums about different interests, from sports to martial arts to psychology to video games, and the obsession with Israel was on every one of them. Of course, political forums are the worst for it. I honestly don't get it, and can't attribute it to anything but bigotry. It seems like something that both the extreme right and extreme left can agree on: Israel is the worst. When it is actually peanuts to other injustices going on in the world.

Possible reasons:

1. Jews are (in general) very successful (economically, and most definitely scientifically). Many people dislike people who are more successful than they are.
2. Jews are disproportionally active in the financial sector because both Christians and Muslims were historically too stupid to appreciate the value of borrowing and lending. Since a lot of people only recognize the value of banks when banks fail, they are likely to blame it on the Jews.
3. Jews are a small minority with little electoral impact outside Israel, so harassing them is fairly costless.
4. Anti-Semitism is an integral part of Islam.

And...

5. After the Holocaust, Anti-Semitism is no longer universally accepted. Anti-Semites thus need a way to express their hatred of Jews in a political correct manner.... Hmm... Hmm... Oh, I know! Anti-Zionism.

6. Most Jews are fairly decent peaceable people, too. They're not likely to mass together in vigilante gangs and look for your blood or indulge in terrorist attacks against your hometown for a perceived slight.

blackelk
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17 Nov 2012, 4:02 pm

Yeah, it seems like most of these anti-Israel nuts I encounter are not Muslims, but white people from the West. I can understand Muslims from the Mideast hating Jews, I don't condone it, but I can understand it.

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blackelk
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17 Nov 2012, 4:03 pm

Tequila wrote:

GGPViper wrote:

blackelk wrote:

Jews have been on the forefront of many liberal causes too. They were the tip of the spear in American Civil Rights movement in the US for example, some even were killed over it, yet black leaders like Sharpton, Farakkhan, Malcolm X,. Jesse Jackson, and even rappers and other celebrities, vilify and despise them.

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blackelk
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17 Nov 2012, 4:20 pm

And does anyone else think that many Muslim/Arab leaders don't want the Israeli "problem" to go away? Israel is a perfect scapegoat; a perfect target to direct all the angst and fury of the Arab world at. Without Israel, muslim populations would turn on the real people causing their problems: their own leadership.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZMuOhuB3Wo[/youtube]

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abacacus
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17 Nov 2012, 5:25 pm

Kurgan wrote:

If the Israellis leave, they give up what's rightfully theirs. Knocking out Hamas may actually knock the confidence of other terrorist organizations down a few notches and teach them not to f*ck with Israel.

The Israeli's have as much right to that land as I do to the house I lived in when I was two.

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GGPViper
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17 Nov 2012, 5:32 pm

abacacus wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

The Israeli's have as much right to that land as I do to the house I lived in when I was two.

So, UN recognition is irrelevant to you?

abacacus
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17 Nov 2012, 5:45 pm

GGPViper wrote:

abacacus wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

The Israeli's have as much right to that land as I do to the house I lived in when I was two.

So, UN recognition is irrelevant to you?

Entirely.

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GGPViper
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17 Nov 2012, 6:03 pm

abacacus wrote:

GGPViper wrote:

abacacus wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

The Israeli's have as much right to that land as I do to the house I lived in when I was two.

So, UN recognition is irrelevant to you?

Entirely.

So, what right do the Palestinians have to the land?

abacacus
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17 Nov 2012, 6:08 pm

GGPViper wrote:

abacacus wrote:

GGPViper wrote:

abacacus wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

The Israeli's have as much right to that land as I do to the house I lived in when I was two.

So, UN recognition is irrelevant to you?

Entirely.

So, what right do the Palestinians have to the land?

They were there. Their homes were there, their families and jobs and what have you were there. They got kicked off that land because the rest of the world felt guilty over the Holocaust (refusing to shelter Jews from the Nazi's), which is hardly reasonable.

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Tequila
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17 Nov 2012, 6:38 pm

abacacus wrote:

That's not quite true now, is it? Most of them fled in 1948. The ones that remained have full Israeli citizenship and are considered equal citizens - in fact, many of them are exempted from duties that are mandatory for Israeli Jews.

Also, from the wiki:

During the 1949 Lausanne conference, Israel proposed allowing the return of 100,000 of the refugees, in what it referred to as a goodwill gesture prior to negotiation for the whole refugee population, though not necessarily to their homes, and including 25,000 who had returned surreptitiously and 10,000 family-reunion cases. "Israel formally informed the PCC of its readiness to take back '100,000' refugees on 3 August, making it conditional on 'retaining all present territory' and on the freedom to resettle the returnees where it saw fit." The proposal was conditional on a peace treaty that would allow Israel to retain the territory it had taken, and on the Arab states absorbing the remaining 550,000–650,000 refugees.

The Arab countries turned it down, just as they have turned everything else down that means seriously negotiating with Israel.

Again, this is what happens in wars - populations get displaced. The surrounding Arab countries simply forced out most of their Jewish (not Israeli, Jewish) minority populations who were then resettled in Israel.

The Palestinian 'refugees' are the only remaining anomaly from the World War II era. Every other country has resettled and integrated its refugees long ago, and are full members of their countries.

abacacus
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17 Nov 2012, 8:04 pm

Tequila wrote:

That's not quite true now, is it? Most of them fled in 1948. The ones that remained have full Israeli citizenship and are considered equal citizens - in fact, many of them are exempted from duties that are mandatory for Israeli Jews.

Also, from the wiki:

*snip to save space*

The Arab countries turned it down, just as they have turned everything else down that means seriously negotiating with Israel.

Again, this is what happens in wars - populations get displaced. The surrounding Arab countries simply forced out most of their Jewish (not Israeli, Jewish) minority populations who were then resettled in Israel.

The Palestinian 'refugees' are the only remaining anomaly from the World War II era. Every other country has resettled and integrated its refugees long ago, and are full members of their countries.

Thoughts and responses in a most chaotic fashion:

Yeah, the Palestinians were so in the wrong to refuse taking a penny on a pound. If I steal your car, would you take just the front bumper back and be fine with me having the rest of the vehicle? Better example, would you accept me coming into your home and telling you that you get to live in one room while I get the rest of the house?

Equal citizens? Israeli citizens tend to be incredibly racist, and the government isn't much better. Arabs in Israel are equal citizens in the same way black people were equal in America in the forties. Technically equal, realistically not even close.

Yes, in wars populations do get displaced. That's what happened to the Jews after WWII. They got an entire country out of it, at the expense of the people who lived there. Are you prepared to grant every other displaced population a country of their own?

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thomas81
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17 Nov 2012, 8:05 pm

GGPViper wrote:

blackelk wrote:

Or 6. People genuinely dislike the deal that the Palestinians have been given?

For some reason that cause is never apparent to the Israel hawks.

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17 Nov 2012, 8:06 pm

^ ^ ^

Better the bumper than nothing at all.

ruveyn

thomas81
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17 Nov 2012, 8:10 pm

Tequila wrote:

GGPViper wrote:

*Ahem*. There is nothing *new* about anti-Semitism in Islam.

I fully know and understand that. I'm referring to the present demonisation of Israel, where it's found most strongest. The far-left are fairly new to the table with antisemitism, but the far-right and Islam have always hated Jews.

If the far left are anti semites, explain to me why so much of the far left criticism of Israel comes from Jews?

You wont find much anti semitism on the left, but what you find on the right is this transparent and aggressive attempt to confuse anti semitism with criticism of Israel. The reason is obvious; they want all opposition to Israel branded as anti semitic and effectively silenced.

Israel is a secular state, and has nothing to do with theological Judaism. It is a religion turned into nationalism which is contrary to Jewish principles.

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17 Nov 2012, 8:21 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:

Why don't they go protest Panama or Pakistan? Why does Panama exist? Why does Pakistan exist? What is the preoccupation with such a tiny portion of the world?

Why bother to care about any issue? Why not just sit at home, eat potato chips and watch the wheel of fortune?

If that attitude had been taken in regards to South Africa up until the release of Mandela, South Africa would most likely still be under Apartheid rule.

MarketAndChurch wrote:

It is 100% fueled by hate, they have no excuses for the amount of time and hate they devout to the issue.

Its not hate at all. There was in recent years a Japanese artist called Haruki Murakami who voiced his opinion on the Israel-Palestine issue. He said to the effect "when it comes to the war between the wall and the egg, I will always stand with the egg". I think that encapsulates the left wing stance on the conflict, i know it does mine. Were the shoe on the other foot, and it was a significant, Muslim invasion, backed by superpower sponsors occupying the land of a militarilly challenged Jewish majority, I would stand with the Zionists. The fact of the matter is it isn't. Hatred doesn't enter it. The only hate is the hate of injustice.

MarketAndChurch wrote:

And the amount of time they do devout to it is utterly racist -- 500 people will die in Mexico and not a single mention in any left-wing editorials, or deaths in Venezuela, or Pakistan, or Iran, or Congo, or anywhere else on earth. 1 Person dies in Palestine: 24 hour news coverage, Embassy's protested, Campuses filled with hateful rhetoric, Newspapers filled with reasons why this is the Isreali's fault and why it doesn't deserve to exist.

I can conclude from that diatribe you have no idea what racism means. Racism implies some sort of malevolence towards the demographic by the party displaying the racism. Find me examples of this afforementioned racism and I'll shut up. Until then you are just reading between the lines.

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17 Nov 2012, 8:43 pm

abacacus wrote:

Equal citizens? Israeli citizens tend to be incredibly racist, and the government isn't much better. Arabs in Israel are equal citizens in the same way black people were equal in America in the forties. Technically equal, realistically not even close.

Uh there are Muslims whom are government officials in Israel, there are even judges that are Muslim. I don't recall African Americans being members of the judiciary in the United States back in the 1940s...

You really need to learn to stop drinking the left-wing kool-aid.

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