How common are "welfare bums"?

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Mikkel
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26 Nov 2012, 11:12 am

marshall wrote:

Mikkel wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

^
Every group has it's wingnuts, I don't think that's an excuse to demonize the whole lot based on a few individuals. Quite a few people on this forum like to misconstrue libertarianism without really understanding it, it gets annoying after a while.

Yes, I get the idea of a minimal state, I can even sympathize with it somewhat, but when we get to the "taxation is theft" I treat them like I treat any "fundamentalist" I come across. They treat something, which is subjective as if it is Objective Truth.

The thing is when I pay my taxes I'm not inclined to see the non-take-home portion of my income as "my money" the way everyone else seems to. I see it more like a transaction fee. Government sets up a standard of legal tender that is difficult to counterfeit and uses the transaction fees to pay for certain things that are mostly in the common interest of everyone. Arguably, tax-funded roads and infrastructure benefit the people who can profit off commerce more than the average citizen so progressive taxation isn't just a robin-hood scheme. The problem is it's hard to do an exact cost-benefit analysis when it comes to government spending because measuring externalities is difficult. Sure, there is plenty of wasteful spending, but there's also a ton of spending that goes to things that people seem to completely take for granted.

I'm also sympathetic with libertarians who argue that when government creates too much red-tape around starting a business it can be a barrier to entry. I think the real problem is the "one size fits all" approach to regulation that treats a small start-up in the exact same fashion as a massive multinational corporation that can afford to hire teams of "red tape" specialists. IMO, the answer isn't to get rid of regulation but to find a way to have different standards for small business and big business. I think this is fair and justified because when a big business screws up a heck of a lot more people are hurt than when a small business screws up.

Well, you got a good point - that is the practical and good side of the libertarian idea. The bad is that there is something like inherent individual property rights or rights as such.

ruveyn
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26 Nov 2012, 11:13 am

Mikkel wrote:

Well, you got a good point - that is the practical and good side of the libertarian idea. The bad is that there is something like inherent individual property rights or rights as such.

As the liberals like to say: What is YOURS is OURS.

ruveyn

Mikkel
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26 Nov 2012, 11:20 am

ruveyn wrote:

Mikkel wrote:

Well, you got a good point - that is the practical and good side of the libertarian idea. The bad is that there is something like inherent individual property rights or rights as such.

As the liberals like to say: What is YOURS is OURS.

ruveyn

Sorry, I should have clarified - there are no rights, period! Neither positive or negative, nor individual or collective.

Oodain
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26 Nov 2012, 11:21 am

ruveyn wrote:

Mikkel wrote:

Well, you got a good point - that is the practical and good side of the libertarian idea. The bad is that there is something like inherent individual property rights or rights as such.

As the liberals like to say: What is YOURS is OURS.

ruveyn

you do realize that that view of a liberal is only relevant to the black and white idiocy of american politics?

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ruveyn
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26 Nov 2012, 11:25 am

Oodain wrote:

you do realize that that view of a liberal is only relevant to the black and white idiocy of american politics?

That is the idiocy in which I live. I am taxed only by American governments and have to put up with only American welfare bums.

ruveyn

Oodain
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26 Nov 2012, 12:06 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Oodain wrote:

you do realize that that view of a liberal is only relevant to the black and white idiocy of american politics?

That is the idiocy in which I live. I am taxed only by American governments and have to put up with only American welfare bums.

ruveyn

it does ring rather hollow when used in a debate about the concepts itself and not any particular country

if that is what you meant then why dont you specify it as such, we have language for a reason.

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Mikkel
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26 Nov 2012, 2:20 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Oodain wrote:

you do realize that that view of a liberal is only relevant to the black and white idiocy of american politics?

That is the idiocy in which I live. I am taxed only by American governments and have to put up with only American welfare bums.

ruveyn

So socialism works elsewhere and inherent individual property rights only works in these United States of America?

thewhitrbbit
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26 Nov 2012, 2:29 pm

I think that people who think conservatives and libertarians act like Montgomery Burns and laugh at starving people need to stop watching MSNBC. Libertarians especially believe strongly in helping others, we just don't believe the government should take our money and redistribute it, but I bet you will see libertarians donating to charity, I bet you will see them volunteering (hell, several of my friends are volunteer paramedics and libertarian). Paul Ryan, despite making less money than Biden, gave 3x more to charity than Biden.

I do believe welfare fraud is a problem. When I see someone buying food with EBT cards, then getting into a Mercediz Benz with temp tags on it, that's a problem. When someone buys steak and lobster with EBT, that's a problem. When someone buys Cigerettes with EBT, that is a problem.

Do I think it's a pandemic? Not to the extent some conservatives make it out to be.

I feel that conservatives are attacking too strongly, but Democrats seem content to ignore the problem completely.

MrXxx
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26 Nov 2012, 2:44 pm

thewhitrbbit wrote:

I do believe welfare fraud is a problem. When I see someone buying food with EBT cards, then getting into a Mercediz Benz with temp tags on it, that's a problem. When someone buys steak and lobster with EBT, that's a problem. When someone buys Cigerettes with EBT, that is a problem.

When I see people jumping to conclusions, that's a problem.

How do you know the EBT card user owns the mercedes?

What kinds of food would you personally approve of for EBT users? Freezer Queen?

This is what pisses me off to no end about people who judge others. In the case of EBT users, they can't win. Someone will disapprove of what they use them for no matter what they do.

Ever considered that the nice shoes on their kid's feet might be GIFTS?

Ever thought about the fact the if EBT users bought nothing but the cheapest available foods, those are frequently the least healthy foods available?

Sometimes these people are just doing the best they can with what they have, and don't WANT to be on assistance.

Ever heard of judging a book by its cover? Stop assuming that you know more than you do based only what's apparent. What is apparent is often not the whole story.

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Sweetleaf
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26 Nov 2012, 2:50 pm

thewhitrbbit wrote:

There is no way you can buy cigarettes with EBT, its not a food item so yeah that would be a problem. But I do not think we need rules to dictate which food people with EBT can and cannot buy, that is taking it a bit too far. Not very libertarian sounding. Less government unless you need assistance is not a political view I can agree with. But to each their own I suppose.

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MrXxx
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26 Nov 2012, 2:52 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

There is no way you can buy cigarettes with EBT, its not a food item so yeah that would be a problem.

Incorrect. EBT cards can be loaded with both Food Stamps and cash benefits. They operate on two different accounts.

The cash can be used for anything not illegal.

Sweetleaf
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26 Nov 2012, 3:22 pm

MrXxx wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

There is no way you can buy cigarettes with EBT, its not a food item so yeah that would be a problem.

Incorrect. EBT cards can be loaded with both Food Stamps and cash benefits. They operate on two different accounts.

The cash can be used for anything not illegal.

Hmm never heard of that, I thought the EBT card could only be used to buy food...even so food stamps and cash benefits are different things and so if they are on different accounts that does not mean the portion that is food stamps can be used to buy non food items. Also I am pretty sure EBT is the term in place of food stamps because that particular system is outdated so now they just put a certain amount on the card each month and that money can only be used for food.

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Seabass
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26 Nov 2012, 3:35 pm

MrXxx wrote:

thewhitrbbit wrote:

It stops becoming an unreasonable judgement and turns into a generalized assessment when you see it happening ALL the time. This post screams "offended". Too many people have been sucked into the delusion of "political correctness".

MrXxx
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26 Nov 2012, 3:52 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

MrXxx wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

There is no way you can buy cigarettes with EBT, its not a food item so yeah that would be a problem.

Incorrect. EBT cards can be loaded with both Food Stamps and cash benefits. They operate on two different accounts.

The cash can be used for anything not illegal.

No. Food Stamps have been changed to SNAP. EBT only stands for Electronic Benifits Transfer. Cash and SNAP benefits can be accessed with the same EBT card. No, you aren't SUPPOSED to be able to buy non food items with the SNAP money, but you can use the other "side" of the card for anything you want. Works the same as an ATM card. No different. Except that nowhere near as many stores actually accept the cash side of the card.

Also, the cash side could be from a number of different sources. Not just Welfare (TANF).

MrXxx
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26 Nov 2012, 4:09 pm

Seabass wrote:

MrXxx wrote:

thewhitrbbit wrote:

Unless you know each individual and his/her specific circumstances, it is unreasonable judgment. Judgment lacking clear evidence is offensive to me. What some people consider clear evidence is nothing more than assumptions made with no proof or evidence of any kind. I am apolitical an unaffected by political correctness. Your final comment is meaningless and unrelated to the topic as far as I'm concerned.

Seabass
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26 Nov 2012, 4:32 pm

MrXxx wrote:

Seabass wrote:

MrXxx wrote:

thewhitrbbit wrote:

So I personally have to go and meet every individual on welfare and make an assessment of them in order to make this conclusion? Please, stop living in that fantasy bubble you've place yourself in. As Immanuel Kant would of said, it's through the combination of empirical insight AND reason that one makes a final judgement.

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