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hfwang18
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17 Dec 2012, 2:28 am

Dox47 wrote:
hfwang18 wrote:
I guess anything seems right-wing after I've been around far-left people for a long time. I guess though that WP reflects the US a bit more, and NationStates is very European (and the Americans that play it are worse, because they have to rant about how "disgustingly conservative" the States is).

To be honest, I dislike their circle jerking because it serves no purpose other than piss off people and doesn't convince anyone that libertarianism is undesirable, but it doesn't mean that I like libertarianism or that I wasn't surprised at the level of support for libertarianism I get around here.


Dude, reality check: WP is fairly left wing. There are like 3 conservatives on here and a handful of libertarians, decidedly the minority of the board. Libertarianism is a bit more prevalent among Aspies than the general public because we tend to like logical systems that make sense, but it's hardly a majority opinion.


I'm very new to this website, so my apologies if I was suddenly shocked by the absence of left-wing circle-jerking.

But I do have to say though...ironically, the reason why I LEFT libertarianism is because I found that Keynesian economics and a mixed economy make more logical sense than government non-intervention.



Tequila
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17 Dec 2012, 5:57 am

Dox47 wrote:
Dude, reality check: WP is fairly left wing. There are like 3 conservatives on here and a handful of libertarians, decidedly the minority of the board. Libertarianism is a bit more prevalent among Aspies than the general public because we tend to like logical systems that make sense, but it's hardly a majority opinion.


What am I? Conservative or libertarian?



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17 Dec 2012, 6:29 am

hfwang18 wrote:
It's been a long time since I've followed up with this thread, but here's my reaction:

@ruveyn: Get over your pipe dream. You got help from the government some way or another throughout your life. It's a shame I forgot that for a few years where I thought the private market could do almost anything.



If I had to attribute my successes to government and other factors it would be: 10 percent government, 40 percent me or close personal associates and 50 percent luck. The government is the least important to any success or value I ever achieved. The initiative for any success or value I have received or gotten is ALL mine. I do the initiating. I get the inspirations. The goverment does diddley squat in that aspect. If anything the government interferes with me much more that it helps.

ruveyn



Dox47
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17 Dec 2012, 6:56 am

Tequila wrote:
What am I? Conservative or libertarian?


IIRC, classical liberal with modern libertarian leanings. Like me, a libertarian, but not a doctrinaire one.


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17 Dec 2012, 2:20 pm

ruveyn wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Elites cause problems regardless of how hard they worked. I'm sure Hitler worked hard to become ruler, but did that justify his authority? I think we should worry more about centralized authority rather than meritocracy. Libertarianism does not spread out authority evenly.


THe libertarians favor following the constitution as written, not as -interpreted- by activist judges in the Federal judiciary. If the Constitution does not spread power adequately (it specify three branches of government any two of which can check the other one) If this is not good enough then we need a new constitution. What would you propose?

ruveyn

Participatory Democracy



adb
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17 Dec 2012, 3:02 pm

RushKing wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
THe libertarians favor following the constitution as written, not as -interpreted- by activist judges in the Federal judiciary. If the Constitution does not spread power adequately (it specify three branches of government any two of which can check the other one) If this is not good enough then we need a new constitution. What would you propose?

ruveyn

Participatory Democracy

Are you going to force people to participate?



RushKing
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17 Dec 2012, 3:08 pm

adb wrote:
RushKing wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
THe libertarians favor following the constitution as written, not as -interpreted- by activist judges in the Federal judiciary. If the Constitution does not spread power adequately (it specify three branches of government any two of which can check the other one) If this is not good enough then we need a new constitution. What would you propose?

ruveyn

Participatory Democracy

Are you going to force people to participate?

No



Jacoby
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17 Dec 2012, 5:48 pm

what is democracy other than mob rule?



ruveyn
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17 Dec 2012, 8:24 pm

Jacoby wrote:
what is democracy other than mob rule?


Democracy is somewhat constrained by the constitution but not nearly enough. There are things that government is not permitted to do such as establish a religion. Even if a majority of people voted to establish a religion or church it would to be legal to implement the decision.

ruveyn



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17 Dec 2012, 8:40 pm

Jacoby wrote:
what is democracy other than mob rule?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y2W6U472IM[/youtube]



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3YLmtQ5roQ[/youtube]



ruveyn
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17 Dec 2012, 9:02 pm

It is not Mob Rule. It is rule by and under law. Perhaps some of the laws need looking at.

ruveyn



adb
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18 Dec 2012, 5:54 pm

How do I accumulate wealth in a participatory democracy?



ruveyn
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18 Dec 2012, 6:15 pm

adb wrote:
How do I accumulate wealth in a participatory democracy?


Become a government employee and skim and scam the system.

ruveyn



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19 Dec 2012, 2:54 pm

I was attracted to it for some time, and even registered libertarian, because it sounds wonderful and great on paper. I dug the anti-authoritarianism bent to it and even still adhere to some of the limited government views. I realized over time though that communism shared a lot of the utopian elements of libertarianism (or at least certain variants of it) and changed my views to be less theoretical and idealistic and more practical and pragmatic. I think any ideology that seeks to fix all of societies problems by rapidly reorganizing and restructuring it is dangerous and will only lead to a system far worse than the one it replaced. Another thing I didn't like about libertarianism is there's a simple answer for everything. Government = bad, Private ownership = good. Things are much more complex than this though, and when addressing the problems of government or society in general, its important to address every issue directly rather than lump them altogether. For example, I notice libertarians tend to be very anti-union for example. Its just a knee jerk reaction for them to condemn all unions collectively or to condemn all forms of government spending. The truth is that not all unions nor government sectors are the same, as they serve different purposes and are organized differently. From what I've seen, Libertarianism is a type of sloppy, lazy thinking that parades itself around as being logical and rational.

I also abandoned right-libertarianism, because I learned over time that private corporations function an awful lot like government through the massive leverage that they wield in high concentrations of capital. Power structures are much more complex than the government vs. private ownership paradigm would have you believe.

Now, I'm just a mix of what would be considered left and right wing views. I hold no ideology that could have a name affixed to it, and I want to keep it that way. I believe in a minimal safety net and sensible government spending. I don't even like the label moderate as it limits me from the option of taking "extreme" positions on things if I see it fit. One time ending slavery or Jim Crowe was seen as "extreme" for example. I'm an individual with a functioning brain and a capacity for reason, not a label with a formulaic, canned answer for everything. I have no desire to be a part of the right wing or left wing of the hubristic dragon that's flying us all straight toward the abyss of our own demise and destruction.



adb
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19 Dec 2012, 4:44 pm

Nathan,

This may sound like I'm attacking you, but it's not my intent.

It sounds like you got on board with the "Ron Paul libertarians". These are conservatives who are rebelling against the republican social philosophies. Most didn't really understand libertarianism.

Libertarianism is not in the least bit "sloppy" or "lazy". It's actually quite intellectual and takes some time to fully understand. Sure, individuals will hop on the bandwagon based on the anti-authoritarianism you speak of, but that's not what libertarianism is about.

A libertarian shouldn't be against unions. A libertarian should recognize the freedom of individuals to associate and collectively bargain. Libertarians get upset about unions because they receive political favoritism. It's not the unions that are the problem -- it's the government's participation in the market and picking unions as the winners over business.

A libertarian also shouldn't be wholly against government spending. Libertarianism is not anarchism. That said, there is very little government spending in the US right now that would qualify as a justifiable use of tax revenue.



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08 Jan 2013, 6:25 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
what is democracy other than mob rule?


Democracy is somewhat constrained by the constitution but not nearly enough. There are things that government is not permitted to do such as establish a religion. Even if a majority of people voted to establish a religion or church it would to be legal to implement the decision.

ruveyn



not if the constitution is amended