IRS apologizes for targeting Tea Party groups

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marshall
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15 May 2013, 11:04 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Even if said group is advocating a crime like tax evasion?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

That's not the criteria they used, they just went after any group that had Tea Party of the word 'patriot' in their name, or later, groups that advocated educating about the Constitution.

Just admit your partisan bias here, you're perfectly okay with abuse of power if it's people you don't like being abused.

No, I don't like abuse of power - neither does the President, as he disagrees with me on this matter. But the fact remains, members of the various tea parties, and so called patriot groups advocate tax rebellion. On top of that, these groups have disingenuously tried to claim tax exempt status by saying they were non-profit organizations working for the general welfare - with no political motives. No political motives - the tea party? I still think the IRS had genuine reason to audit these groups. That isn't, in my opinion, an abuse of power.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I think tax exempt status should be limited to strictly charitable activities. All kinds of politically motivated organizations get away with tax exempt status by claiming to be "educational". If they target the Tea Party they should start targeting every partisan organization. Singling out specific groups and not others is a problem, if that did indeed happen. I can't stand the Tea Party but you can't defend selective enforcement. Still, I'd prefer to see more evidence before jumping to my own conclusions.

There has been egregious crap done against OWS that Eric Holder and the Obama administration have just ignored. Presumably because it would be too "divisive" or "partisan". Only scandals against conservatives ever make the national news.

Kraichgauer
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15 May 2013, 12:22 pm

marshall wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Even if said group is advocating a crime like tax evasion?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I agree with you 100%.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

AgentPalpatine
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15 May 2013, 1:13 pm

In case anyone wants to read the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration (TIGTA) report on this matter....

http://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditrepo ... 0053fr.pdf

FYI, It's 54 pages long.

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PsychoSarah
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15 May 2013, 2:26 pm

Is it bad. Yes.

But I don't care.

Ancalagon
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15 May 2013, 3:24 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

I think Kraichgauer's point is that people who are openly disdainful of taxes are probably more likely to avoid paying their fair share.

Why? If all they wanted was to avoid paying taxes, they could just lie to the IRS or try to find loopholes in the law.

People who are against a tax being levied aren't morally obligated not to pay it, any more than people who are against a particular benefit being given out are morally obligated not to use the benefit while it's being given out, or people who are against copyrights are morally obligated to illegally copy copyrighted material.

I'm not a member of the Tea Party, so I might be guessing wrong about them, but I think what they want to do is exactly to "pay their fair share", but they have different ideas about what that means than you do.

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CSBurks
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15 May 2013, 4:17 pm

Ancalagon wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

I think Kraichgauer's point is that people who are openly disdainful of taxes are probably more likely to avoid paying their fair share.

Indeed, 'fair' is not a fact but an opinion.

To me, it's not fair that someone takes your money under the threat of violence.

marshall
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15 May 2013, 4:28 pm

CSBurks wrote:

Ancalagon wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

I think Kraichgauer's point is that people who are openly disdainful of taxes are probably more likely to avoid paying their fair share.

Indeed, 'fair' is not a fact but an opinion.

To me, it's not fair that someone takes your money under the threat of violence.

Then use barter instead. :roll:

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15 May 2013, 4:31 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

But drone strikes? Bush killed a whole lot of people indiscriminately with air strikes.

Seriously? You're holding up George W. Bush as a model to be followed?

Quote:

Gitmo? Obama will probably close down the facility before his term is up, as he's expressing renewed interest in this matter.

"We're going to close Guantanamo. And we're going to restore habeas corpus. We're going to lead by example—not just by word but by deed. That's our vision for the future." --Barack Obama

"From the day I took office, I've been told that addressing our larger challenges is too ambitious; such an effort would be too contentious. I've been told that our political system is too gridlocked, and that we should just put things on hold for a while. For those who make these claims, I have one simple question: How long should we wait?" --Barack Obama

"I continue to believe we need to close GITMO. I'm going to go back at it." --Barack Obama

"Congress determined that they would not let us close it." --Barack Obama

How long should we wait? Good question, Mr. President. He was elected in 2008, and it is now 2013. Unless my math is wrong, it's been 5 years. Now he's "expressing renewed interest"? Oh, frabjuous day! I'm sure all the detainees are absolutely brimming with hope now! After 5 years of not acting on his promise, he has given us another promise! Wonderful! How could anyone not be satisfied with such bold, decisive leadership?! Yes, we can!

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Kraichgauer
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15 May 2013, 5:57 pm

Ancalagon wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

But drone strikes? Bush killed a whole lot of people indiscriminately with air strikes.

Seriously? You're holding up George W. Bush as a model to be followed?

Quote:

Gitmo? Obama will probably close down the facility before his term is up, as he's expressing renewed interest in this matter.

If you think I'm hold George W. Bush up as a role model, then you really aren't grasping what I meant.
And why do you have a problem with that it's Congressional Republicans who have been blocking the closure of Guantanamo?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

The_Walrus
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15 May 2013, 6:12 pm

Ancalagon wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

I think Kraichgauer's point is that people who are openly disdainful of taxes are probably more likely to avoid paying their fair share.

Why? If all they wanted was to avoid paying taxes, they could just lie to the IRS or try to find loopholes in the law.

Checking might catch some of them out.

I was clarifying Kraichgauer's position (as several people seemed to have misunderstood) rather than stating my own so I have ignored the rest of your post.

Ancalagon
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15 May 2013, 7:27 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

If you think I'm hold George W. Bush up as a role model, then you really aren't grasping what I meant.

I can only respond to your words, not your thoughts.

Quote:

And why do you have a problem with that it's Congressional Republicans who have been blocking the closure of Guantanamo?

"We're going to lead by example—not just by word but by deed." --Barack Obama
"I've been told that our political system is too gridlocked, and that we should just put things on hold for a while. " --Barack Obama

According to Obama's words, the options of waiting, blaming the other party for gridlock, and just talking about it instead of doing it are not acceptable. He has done all of the above. And I really don't buy that Congress could stop the commander-in-chief of the US military from doing something about a US military prison, on a US military base run by the US military.

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Kraichgauer
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15 May 2013, 7:47 pm

Ancalagon wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

If you think I'm hold George W. Bush up as a role model, then you really aren't grasping what I meant.

I can only respond to your words, not your thoughts.

Quote:

And why do you have a problem with that it's Congressional Republicans who have been blocking the closure of Guantanamo?

You underestimate how much power Congress has.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Ancalagon
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15 May 2013, 8:22 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

You underestimate how much power Congress has.

It isn't a matter of how much power they have, it's a matter of what they have power over. The commander-in-chief has power over the military.

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Jacoby
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15 May 2013, 9:31 pm

Congress could of cut funding but Obama could of closed the prison with a stroke of a pen if he choose , there is nothing preventing him from doing so. Neither Obama or congress have any real interest in closing Gitmo since even if they did they would just be doing the same things somewhere else. It would just be a symbolic gesture with no change in policy. The political will isn't there to house these 'enemy combatants' in the continental US and many of them can never be trialed in civilian court. Moving the prisoners to another facility would also give the Obama administration 100% ownership of whatever abuses take place at the facility, they couldn't look back and blame Bush anymore.

Kraichgauer
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16 May 2013, 12:11 am

Ancalagon wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

You underestimate how much power Congress has.

It isn't a matter of how much power they have, it's a matter of what they have power over. The commander-in-chief has power over the military.

But he doesn't operate in a political vacuum.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

GnosisAndNihilism
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17 May 2013, 11:00 pm

When are they going to apologize for robbing hundreds of millions of people out of billions of dollars? A bunch of bandits in suits, eh.

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