Killing the disabled

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Yep, I've volunteered for charity events before where the good philanthropists AKA uber rich people use the event for PR. They loved having their egos stroked when the media harped on about how good they were.

The world admires "winners" even more than they dislike bullies. If you get to the top by bullying, that's fine and dandy. Look at Steve Jobs and Michael Jordan, for example. They are major bullying douchebags but are also adored because they are viewed as winners. So the world is not against bullies per se just but "losers" that are also bullies.

Couldn't agree more We are not animals we are humans.

We are not the only species that uses intellect to survive, but we are the only species to design incredible cathedrals, compose amazing symphonies, and produce mind blowing paintings. It is our amazing intellect that makes us so incredible as a species. And ironically there is a good chance that many of the people who were responsible for these amazing achievements were if not autistic at the very least had neurodiverse brains!

Human beings are pitiful creatures taken from a survive point of view - we have no fur, fangs or claws, we are not very fast and in our natural state would be prey to just about everything out there.

Yet we not only survived we flourished. Because out intellect meant we were able to use clothing and man-made shelter to keep us protected. We were able to create a whole range of tools to not only compensate for the lack of fangs and claws, but to actually outperform those natural weapons.

Despite what some amateur evolution theorists will have you believe, survival of the fittest for humans doesn't just mean the strongest and best hunters. It also means survival of the best thinkers and problem solvers. Without the thinkers who designed everything from the best flint tools to modern aircraft carriers, how far do you think the warriors and hunters would have got?

Survival of the fittest even means survival of the best caregivers. Yes caregivers! there have been doctors and nurses since human records began, and they too are an important part of our survival - allowing us to carry on after injuries that would have doomed any other animal.

If you think only the strongest should survive, then ask yourself this: why is it that no matter which era you look at, no matter which culture, there are always great artists, philosophers, scientists, writers and dancers? Surely the 'laws of evolution' would have wiped them out centuries ago as being too weak and pointless to survive! Yet not only did they survive, they were feted and well looked after by the rich and powerful who wanted their lives filled with the art and culture these supposedly useless people could provide!

Unfortunately the human race is also capable of barbarity and corruption, and we are just as likely to destroy as to build, but we are still amazing nonetheless.

Does this guy realize he advocated for eugenics just now?

Like this:

What does this mean? "Genetic inferiorities" is a value judgment, not an objective judgment. It is the kind of value judgment that leads to mass graves, involuntary sterilization of women of color and disabled women. There is no way to implement this in a way that shows actual care for the "human species" because it reduces individual humans to a zero sum game: Are their genes good enough? Yay, they get to live! If they're not? What do you do then? Death camps? Executions? How do you implement such a strategem? And even assuming you kill all the people who have "inferior genes" you then have to test all fetuses for potential "inferior genes" and then force abortions on women who have them? Or kill their children at birth if they prove to be inferior? And then forcibly sterilize the parents?

Did you really think this stance through? Consider the degree of mass murder and medical mayhem you'd have to commit on huge numbers people? Is the human race worth mass murder and genocide?

Do not speak of "care" and then follow it up with mass murder. That is pure hypocrisy.

Well, at least I can see from this thread how they will round us up if they decide to kill all the aspies. They will tell us it's a debate over the minutae of peripheral points relating to a subject that might or might not effect us. We will all go in expecting exciting debate and it's the execution chamber! Just like when the cops rounded up all those folks who had outstanding warrants for minor stuff and they sent them letters saying they had won tickets to the Alabama Auburn game and to come to a certain room at the civic center. They walked willingly into arrest, because they were arrested when they showed their ID and followed the red and white arrows to the ticket pickup area.

Nah - they will tell us it's a room full of lego train sets and star wars memorabilia

Which is one reason why I've never volunteered for charity fundraisers, if I want to help I volunteer to actually help - as in giving practical aid directly to those who need it. Let the celebrities massage their ego's on their own time - I'll be too busy pushing a wheelchair to care

Just some comments i'll quickly respond to...

"We're better than nature"

oh wait BETTER not just better.

We are nature, actually not even that, we're only a part of nature. Yet we're better than it? Is this because your god said so? Whatever.

I'm not offering a "justification" i'm saying what is.

The stuff that Shermer said that goes on about how the weaker might do well as well, well... I'm not going to second guess Shermer, he knew what he was writing, but YOU misunderstood what he said, as i pointed out in another thread earlier today, he was talking about speciation, when two groups with DIFFERENT strengths and weaknesses appear side by each, either one of two things can happen, the weak one is either breed out through attrition, or wiped out via violence, or the second possibility is that they form a new species. And they take a new niche environment and become masters of it, thus still fulfilling survival of the fittest.
Okay... If we as autistics want to branch off and start our own race, i'm in... Quite seriously I'm all for that, but I don't really see it as a reality.

Verdandi: You've read shermer's article with a severe case of confirmation bias
But what he is saying, is just as "good" for you (and me, and the others here on this forum) Excel where you excel, and make your environment one where you are strong. You can chose your environment, you don't have to let it be chosen for you by others... As shermer said there is no linearity to evolution, it goes where it goes, and eventually it WILL diverge, perhaps ASD will be a divergence... If we survive.

Quote:
To create a world which embraces those who cannot pull their own weight one must increase the levels of bureaucracy that is already beyond rampant now..
Please elaborate.

First, if you don't think there is too much bureaucracy now... i'm not going to even go there...
If you don't think forcing equality will create more.... Get real please, this needs no elaboration, it's a no-brainer. Oh, maybe you think everyone will just start acting nice. Okay dream-time is over, let's wake up now.
Non-discrimination laws will have to be implemented and then policed. Use the gender equality fight for an example... This will make that look pale.

Quote:
What is the human species, if not individual humans? Or, to put it another way, how can you care for humanity if you do not care for humans?

The good of an individual is NOT the good of a species.
My best interest would involve me taking as much from everyone as I can
Humanity's best interest is me giving to society as much as i can.

Or lets draw a parallel to a bag of potatoes: Let's care about each and every potato, and the one that went bad and is starting to rot... well we still care about it and we can't throw it out, because he's just as important as all the others... two days later the entire bag is black and the flies are having a feast.

All these people posting on this forum... if you THINK you're disabled, and unable to contribute, then guess what? You are!
If you stop that kind of thinking, embrace your strengths, and avoid your weaknesses, then you're NOT disabled, you're simply differently abled. You can contribute back, when you stop letting others convince you that you can't.

I'd say don't give up... But those of you who haven't yet, aren't likely to, i don't think.
There are too many people here who it seems have. They view themselves as disabled, and that alone is their disability. Stop it, because you're dragging the rest of us down with you.
I don't want society labeling me as disabled simply because you have given up!

You have a fiendish mind.

I mean that as a compliment.

That would make me run away, but it would attract my NT husband who loves Star Wars. However, I had to make that post. It happens on lots of threads, not just this one, and I do it too so I'm not being snotty about it.

I never got the train thing. I've been on a train, twice. It was like a bus for the most part. It wasn't cool like I thought it would be, but it was probably better than flying though. As for lego's I loved them as a kid and would still like playing with them if my kids hadn't had tons of them and I've stepped on them at night barefooted so many times that I now hate them with a passion lol.

Just some comments i'll quickly respond to...

"We're better than nature"

oh wait BETTER not just better.

We are nature, actually not even that, we're only a part of nature. Yet we're better than it? Is this because your god said so? Whatever.

I'm not offering a "justification" i'm saying what is.

The stuff that Shermer said that goes on about how the weaker might do well as well, well... I'm not going to second guess Shermer, he knew what he was writing, but YOU misunderstood what he said, as i pointed out in another thread earlier today, he was talking about speciation, when two groups with DIFFERENT strengths and weaknesses appear side by each, either one of two things can happen, the weak one is either breed out through attrition, or wiped out via violence, or the second possibility is that they form a new species. And they take a new niche environment and become masters of it, thus still fulfilling survival of the fittest.
Okay... If we as autistics want to branch off and start our own race, i'm in... Quite seriously I'm all for that, but I don't really see it as a reality.

Verdandi: You've read shermer's article with a severe case of confirmation bias
But what he is saying, is just as "good" for you (and me, and the others here on this forum) Excel where you excel, and make your environment one where you are strong. You can chose your environment, you don't have to let it be chosen for you by others... As shermer said there is no linearity to evolution, it goes where it goes, and eventually it WILL diverge, perhaps ASD will be a divergence... If we survive.

Quote:
To create a world which embraces those who cannot pull their own weight one must increase the levels of bureaucracy that is already beyond rampant now..
Please elaborate.

First, if you don't think there is too much bureaucracy now... i'm not going to even go there...
If you don't think forcing equality will create more.... Get real please, this needs no elaboration, it's a no-brainer. Oh, maybe you think everyone will just start acting nice. Okay dream-time is over, let's wake up now.
Non-discrimination laws will have to be implemented and then policed. Use the gender equality fight for an example... This will make that look pale.

Quote:
What is the human species, if not individual humans? Or, to put it another way, how can you care for humanity if you do not care for humans?

The good of an individual is NOT the good of a species.
My best interest would involve me taking as much from everyone as I can
Humanity's best interest is me giving to society as much as i can.

Or lets draw a parallel to a bag of potatoes: Let's care about each and every potato, and the one that went bad and is starting to rot... well we still care about it and we can't throw it out, because he's just as important as all the others... two days later the entire bag is black and the flies are having a feast.

All these people posting on this forum... if you THINK you're disabled, and unable to contribute, then guess what? You are!
If you stop that kind of thinking, embrace your strengths, and avoid your weaknesses, then you're NOT disabled, you're simply differently abled. You can contribute back, when you stop letting others convince you that you can't.

I'd say don't give up... But those of you who haven't yet, aren't likely to, i don't think.
There are too many people here who it seems have. They view themselves as disabled, and that alone is their disability. Stop it, because you're dragging the rest of us down with you.
I don't want society labeling me as disabled simply because you have given up!

Ignoring anything else you might have to say - that is the most ridiculous analogy I have ever heard! The only way that would ever relate to human society would be if someone had a deadly disease that could spread like wildfire to others around them. And even the strongest human rights advocate would agree with that person being quarantined for the good of the surrounding community.

More importantly Autism is not a disease, those around us don't become autistic by association. Our being disabled does not suddenly cause society to become sick and die. We are not rotten potatoes that will turn everyone black and covered in flies!

Society will continue to function normally regardless of whether disabled people are within their midst or not. For as long as there have been villages there have been 'village idiots', they were not killed off but put to work doing whatever menial tasks they were capable of. Because every village idiot had a mother and father who were just as much a part of that community as anyone else. Nowadays those so called 'village idiots' would most likely be diagnosed with a neurological condition and given a different label. They certainly didn't cause the human race to die off as a result of tolerating them.

BTW I'm using the term 'village idiot' in the historical sense as that is the term that would have been used, I don't endorse anyone in this day and age being labelled as such.

As grahamguitarman pointed out, this is a worthless analogy. See, no one has potatoes as friends or family or husbands or wives or girlfriends or boyfriends or sons or daughters or aunts or uncles or grandparents or parents. Potatoes don't develop interpersonal connections with each other. Potatoes completely lack subjectivity and agency, while humans have both. Except, of course, people love to deny various people agency. For example, they love to discuss disabled people as objects, not truly human. As comparable to rotten potatoes, as having "inferior genes" that must be weeded out. There's no concern for the person, just viewing them as damage.



You've constructed a false dichotomy. Being disabled does not mean "unable to contribute." If you think the only kind of contribution that counts is having a job then I will just laugh at your capitalist ways. I am disabled and I do contribute. I have contributed in many ways. I shouldn't have to use this to justify my existence - and I am not. I am trying to make a point that you do not simply have "disability" with "no contributions" and "differently abled" with "contributions." Differently abled is a lie. It hides the fact of what disability is. It's an attempt at a polite euphemism that never really worked out. And what you think doesn't make you more or less disabled. If you're disabled, you're disabled no matter what. What does help is accommodation, knowing your limits, and being able to remain with them reliably, and limit the need to exceed them. To have assistance if you need assistance.



I haven't given up but I have given up on you. I'm not a fan of mass murder, nor of those who suggest it as a viable option. But I will say that I will continue to describe myself as disabled because doing so has allowed me to better meet my own needs and learn how to function better within my own limits. I don't define myself in terms of what other people think I should be. I don't see the point to it.

And you're bringing yourself down without any help from the rest of us.

No, autism isn't a disease, it's a diversity. You may claim you don't see it as a disease, but you're viewing and treating it as though it were one, or something that amounts to the same thing.

"THE village idiot" have you ever heard them referred to in the plural form, when reading old stories and such?
No, they were rather rare, the few that survived into adulthood posed no tangible cost to the society which kept them alive, and I suspect they were mostly all bachelors. But what now of the proportion of "village idiots" to "hard workers" do we have, and what percentage of society's resources go to maintaining them now, versus then?

It's not society's responsibility to divert it's resources into helping you adjust and cope, unless they can benefit from doing so. And even then it's not their responsibility, it's just in their best interest.

Those of us that haven't "given up" already can offer something back. We just have to define what that is and offer it to society in exchange for the things we can't do. But we have to make sure that what we have to offer is acceptable, and a fair trade. It's OUR responsibility to ensure that, and if it's turned down, the responsibility lies with us to up the ante.

We don't have the right however, to stick out our hand and say I have nothing to offer but demand that people have to help me, just because i was born.

Stop thinking you're disabled, and find your abilities!

Verdandi, by your condemnation of "differently abled" vs "disabled" you are saying that everyone is disabled.

No one is as strong as the strongest person, thus everyone else is disabled.
No one is as smart as the smartest person, thus everyone else (including the strongest person aforementioned, unless he is also the smartest person) is disabled.

Ergo: everyone is disabled.
Everyone is special, and once everyone is special, no one is special again.

Circular reasoning.
Fail.

Even a more realistic analogy here, everyone has something that they're in the bottom 10% of the population at.
Everyone does, some of us have more such things, others have fewer, but everyone has something they're well below average at. Ergo: Disabled.

To see reality, you have to think outside of the box... and continuing to think that you're special, or that humanity is special, or that any one person is special, precludes the ability to do so.

Yes there are interactions between humans that don't occur between potatoes, but one person who has given into disability will leach the goodness and wealth out of those around him without offering anything back, just as the potato does. The rotten potato does not improve itself by the drain it creates on the others. If it did, and that improvement was more than the drain on the others, then it would be worth keeping it.

The same analogy goes to the humans, if the one that is being helped improves more than the cost of the helping, then it was a worthwhile trade, and in the group's best interest, and should be done.

You called me a capitalist, and at one time that would've insulted me badly, but now it brings a greedy smile to my face. But the truth is here, when i say COST, i don't mean just $$$$ cost, i mean all costs, when I say gains, i mean other gains too, not just money. You cannot perform at a cost-benefit analysis and only look at dollar values.... BUT you can put a dollar value on social harmony and the other things you're talking about, and you need to, to be able to analyse the situation.

If you can offer fair compensation for what you consume, use, need etc... Then you're not disabled.
Yes you have limitations, everyone has limitations.
Some people can't lift more than 5 pounds, okay nothing should be allowed to weight more than 5 pounds now.
I myself can't understand a thing when more than one person is talking at the same time (many of us have that issue) okay, let's pass a law that says if someone within earshot is talking, you go to jail if you start talking before they're done!

I know those are flippant examples, but what i'm saying is that it is your responsibility to control your environment to meet with your limitations, otherwise the entire world has to be kept within your limitations, and you have to be kept within the limitations of the most "disabled" member of society in every other aspect of life. It's the "No child left behind" policy... read up on it, it makes the smart dumb and the dumb dumber.

I started this train of posts with more of a "Devil's Advocate" rationale. But the lack of concrete, logical counters to my arguments, the emotional baggage behind the weak attempts to refute me are making me really sad... I wanted someone to hand me the "you're wrong" card. I haven't seen it yet.

That really is sadness too, thank you! Maybe i still am alive inside after all, i haven't felt an emotion in a long time.

That's about one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard someone on here say. Ugh.