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DentArthurDent
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09 Jul 2014, 11:27 pm

So you believe the creation story of the bible to be true? Ok thats fine. Could you please show evidence for your understanding of the development of biology from after the point life was created.

I am not asking you to provide what you think are flaws in Evolutionary Theory, I am asking for you to provide actual evidence for your understanding of events. Oh and by the way, just so we can be clear oral tradition from an age when we thought thunder and lighting were the gods showing their anger is not acceptable as evidence.


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09 Jul 2014, 11:44 pm

:D [img][800:1000]http://i1326.photobucket.com/albums/u660/2lucky4snuffy/2ffe4a9beeaff7033823704d50494ecd_zpse0d53881.jpg[/img]


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Kraichgauer
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10 Jul 2014, 2:23 am

I just find it incredibly impossible to believe that mountain goats, huskies, and people coexisted with T Rex, since all those other creatures wouldn't last ten minutes with T Rex. :lol:


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DentArthurDent
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10 Jul 2014, 3:10 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
I just find it incredibly impossible to believe that mountain goats, huskies, and people coexisted with T Rex, since all those other creatures wouldn't last ten minutes with T Rex. :lol:


Whilst I might agree with you and yes you did give me cause to chuckle :wink:, I would really like the creationists on this forum to take the opportunity to put forward their non folkloric evidence for creation.


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Kraichgauer
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10 Jul 2014, 3:12 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I just find it incredibly impossible to believe that mountain goats, huskies, and people coexisted with T Rex, since all those other creatures wouldn't last ten minutes with T Rex. :lol:


Whilst I might agree with you and yes you did give me cause to chuckle :wink:, I would really like the creationists on this forum to take the opportunity to put forward their non folkloric evidence for creation.


Well, I believe in a theistic evolution, along with a geological age of the earth that extends back billions of years, so I'm afraid I can't help you there. :lol:


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drh1138
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10 Jul 2014, 3:37 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Well, I believe in a theistic evolution, along with a geological age of the earth that extends back billions of years, so I'm afraid I can't help you there. :lol:


I don't see any problem with that. It's the ideology that demands public policy (science and education) to be dictated by literalist teachings that I find fault with. So long as you're okay to having your beliefs, and to let me have mine, I don't have any hostility towards religion.



DentArthurDent
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10 Jul 2014, 3:58 am

Just in case some of you do wish to put forth your evidence. Some how I I doubt you will as mainly you seem to use daft methods to try and debunk evolution rather than put forward substantive evidence for creation you might like to read this as it will steer you away from already debunk ideas and thereby save you and everyone else a great deal of time.

Sticky on Rational Skepticism

Creationists-Read this


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Hooday
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10 Jul 2014, 6:06 am

Well, I don't know if there's much to explain. The Bible says on the Third Day, He created grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth.

On Day Four, He creates the Sun, the Moon, and the stars.

On the Fifth Day, He created the great sea creatures, and every living creature that moves, which the waters brought forth abundantly, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind.

On Day Six, He made living creatures according to their kind, cattle, and creeping things, and beasts of the earth according to their kind. Finally, He made man from the dust of the ground, and created woman from a rib in his side.

Whether these "kinds" correspond with the current taxonomic definition, I don't know. Clearly, there is a distinction between the different animal kingdoms, and we are to understand that they were all created in their current recognizable form at once, (not stretched out over millions of years.)

After that, I'm not sure. The Bible doesn't give a lot of details about how these creatures migrated or propagated, other than to understand that it was via the same way they do now.

There is a short account of Abel being a keeper of the flocks, so animal husbandry was practiced from the very beginning. Same with Cain's tilling of the land and raising crops. It started at the very beginning of man's living in a fallen state.

There are references to sacrifices, but no big mentions until the Flood account beginning in Chapter Six. We see God bringing all the animals to the ark. "Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of birds, and of everything that creeps upon the ground," - By pairs for those animals considered "unclean" and by sevens for all the birds and those animals considered "clean."

After the flood, both a raven and a dove are mentioned as being on the ark. These both leave the ark by air once they have found a place to land and/or eat, (signifying the Earth was again becoming habitable.)

After this, God told Noah to bring forth every living thing that is with you of all flesh, both birds and cattle, and every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth, that they may breed abundantly on the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon it.

Interestingly, at this point God puts the fear of man upon every beast of the earth, and upon every bird of the heavens, with all with which the ground teems, and all the fishes of the sea. He says, "They are delivered into your hand."

From there, the animals have done as God intended - they've bred abundantly, have been fruitful, and have multiplied. All the way up until the present.

What else were you wanting to know?



Last edited by Hooday on 10 Jul 2014, 6:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

TallyMan
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10 Jul 2014, 6:09 am

@Hooday, you haven't actually responded to his question. Try reading it again.

DentArthurDent wrote:
I am not asking you to provide what you think are flaws in Evolutionary Theory, I am asking for you to provide actual evidence for your understanding of events.


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Last edited by TallyMan on 10 Jul 2014, 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hooday
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10 Jul 2014, 6:13 am

It is evidence. It's evidence of the best kind. Authoritative. The testimony of the Word of God. By it we understand the order and sequence of how all living things were created.

I don't know what better reference you could ask for.



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10 Jul 2014, 6:15 am

^ In short it cannot be corroborated in reality. The truth is that the biblical account is incorrect on just about every level. Your arguments in favour of creation are a total fail. I don't know why I'm wasting more time responding to your naivety.


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drh1138
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10 Jul 2014, 6:45 am

Hooday wrote:
On Day Four, He creates the Sun, the Moon, and the stars.


It's not even wrong.



DentArthurDent
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10 Jul 2014, 6:52 am

I will accept scriptural evidence on the proviso you show the scriptures have a base in reality. So if you can show that the biblical events of creation are correct please be my guest, but please do not throw scripture around as if it is undeniable truth, to do this you need to first demonstrate the plausibility of scripture being truly the word of God. Just affirming that it is so in no way presents a rational or serious argument.

So you need to demonstrate that events in the bible actually happened, provide evidence for this, for example archeology or via multiple independent attestation, or you could try and demonstrate that we do all share a common fully human ancestor, who had no other ancestral line.


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10 Jul 2014, 7:22 am

Hooday wrote:
It is evidence. It's evidence of the best kind. Authoritative. The testimony of the Word of God. By it we understand the order and sequence of how all living things were created.

I don't know what better reference you could ask for.


I could ask for different Words of God(s) and lo! I get them just by looking at the written creation stories from other religions.

For example, Hinduism:
http://www.godrealized.org/Religious-Cr ... ories.html

Quote:
The doctrine of karma forms most integral part of religious creation story... more particularly the creation story put forward by Hinduism! The creation of cosmic system... the creation of world did not occur in seven days as stipulated in Christianity or Islamic Dharma. It took billions of years before life supporting planets like mother Earth evolved in the cosmic system.

The sacred Bhagavad-Gita of Hinduism explains Hinduism religious creation story at its best! The creation story put forward by Bhagavad-Gita is the most sacrosanct of all! Bhagavad-Gita of Hinduism states that whole cosmic system starts the moment God Almighty explodes self with a big bang. And why does God Almighty explodes self with a Big Bang?


As detailed in Bhagavad-Gita... let us imagine a position when dissolution of old cosmos occurs! At this stage the entire mass... the entire volume of whole cosmos reduces to size of half a thumb. In absence of dross impurities within... the mass of all purified souls atmans in cosmos carries the volume of half a thumb!

This half a thumb as per Bhagavad-Gita of Hinduism... the collective power of all purified souls atmans in the cosmos is what we know as God Almighty! This massive primordial power... the sum total of all purified souls atmans in the cosmos... the volume of half a thumb unable to retain itself for long in its prime pure state again explodes with a big bang and starts a new cosmos... a new journey of life!

As per Hinduism is it certain that the beginning of cosmos starts with God Almighty exploding self with a Big Bang... yes, the cosmic truth is so! The cluster of all purified souls atmans in the cosmos with occurrence of big bang gets scattered all over cosmos! These hurtling pure souls? atmans with passage of time gather impurities similar as a rolling ball gathers moss!


Which authoritative Word of God you believe is purely arbitrary and down to the culture you grew up with. It is that arbitrariness which keeps me non-religious.



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10 Jul 2014, 7:59 am

Janissy wrote:
Which authoritative Word of God you believe is purely arbitrary and down to the culture you grew up with. It is that arbitrariness which keeps me non-religious.


Exactly. Fundamentalists of each religion claim that theirs is the one true religion (like Hooday no doubt would). It never occurs to them that maybe NONE of them are correct. The wildly different accounts of creation as given by all religions are simply mythology and of no relevance today when we can actually investigate these things using the tools of science. We know with certainly that life evolved over millions of years and yet a handful of misguided/misinformed/zealous creationists keep popping up trying to convince others that their fantasy and mythology are real. Sorry kid, we've seen and studied the facts regarding evolution and we ain't buying creation. We similarly don't buy that the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth.


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10 Jul 2014, 11:05 am

drh1138 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Well, I believe in a theistic evolution, along with a geological age of the earth that extends back billions of years, so I'm afraid I can't help you there. :lol:


I don't see any problem with that. It's the ideology that demands public policy (science and education) to be dictated by literalist teachings that I find fault with. So long as you're okay to having your beliefs, and to let me have mine, I don't have any hostility towards religion.


Fine by me. 8)


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