Are you Scottish? opinion of the secession vote
This thread is for WP users who are Scottish only. No offense to those who are not, but it is an internal matter.
What is your opinion of the future of Scotland?
the Referendum?
What do you want to happen?
Do you live in Scotland, or watch from afar?
Last edited by slave on 12 Aug 2014, 4:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Averick
Veteran
Joined: 5 Mar 2007
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,709
Location: My tower upon the crag. Yes, mwahahaha!
Mind you I am not a native of Scotland, but I really don't think that there will be a chance that this will ever happen.
Could you imagine the reaction of the other countries surrounding England? Ireland would be next, then N. Ireland and on and on.
_________________
Light in the absence of eyes illuminates nothing.
Could you imagine the reaction of the other countries surrounding England? Ireland would be next, then N. Ireland and on and on.
Ireland left the UK in 1921. NI remains in the UK.
As an Englishman, I think that there is no chance that the Yes side will win. The No vote has already been won.
Averick
Veteran
Joined: 5 Mar 2007
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,709
Location: My tower upon the crag. Yes, mwahahaha!
Could you imagine the reaction of the other countries surrounding England? Ireland would be next, then N. Ireland and on and on.
Ireland left the UK in 1921. NI remains in the UK.
As an Englishman, I think that there is no chance that the Yes side will win. The No vote has already been won.
Sorry Tequila, I meant Irish retaliation for the past and N. Ireland's future annexation by the former away from England.
_________________
Light in the absence of eyes illuminates nothing.
To the OP:
I think that you mean "secession", not "succession".
The Spanish had a war of "succession" ( over who got to be the next king), and we Americans had a war of "secession" (over whether or not a region could break away from the rest of the country). I think that you mean the later: Scotland breaking away from the UK.
To Averick:
What the fig are you talking about? The Republic of Ireland (ie the NOT Northern part of Ireland) is nowhere near strong enough to seize anything from the United Kingdom. And the majority population of Northern Ireland are Protestant loyalist (more loyal to England than the English in England are loyal to England) and dont want to Dublin to liberate them (though the Catholic minority there might dream of that).
Even if there's a chance that Scotland could be successful on its own,I think the ties that unite us with the rest of the UK are too strong to be broken,especially when there is so much uncertaintly about the mechanics of how independence would work. The SNP want to retain the pound in a currency union overseen by the Bank Of England. As the 'Better Together' campaigners point out,that's like asking for a divorce but wanting to keep the joint bank account.
Although Scotland and England are both ancient kingdoms in their own right,even as a United Kingdom from 1707 it still represents an older country than such as modern Italy (fully united in 1870) and Germany (1871) so is difficult to see it breaking up after all this time.
Other countries that have broken up were artificially put together in the first place (Czechoslovakia,Yugoslavia) whereas Great Britain as
an island is a natural construct.
_________________
I have lost the will to be apathetic
Other countries that have broken up were artificially put together in the first place (Czechoslovakia,Yugoslavia) whereas Great Britain as
an island is a natural construct.
The difference is that I think that in Germany most Germans consider their ethnicity to be just German. In the UK you have English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish people. Although I think some people consider themselves just British.
Averick
Veteran
Joined: 5 Mar 2007
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,709
Location: My tower upon the crag. Yes, mwahahaha!
What the fig are you talking about? The Republic of Ireland (ie the NOT Northern part of Ireland) is nowhere near strong enough to seize anything from the United Kingdom. And the majority population of Northern Ireland are Protestant loyalist (more loyal to England than the English in England are loyal to England) and dont want to Dublin to liberate them (though the Catholic minority there might dream of that).
http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-and-th ... 6-May2012/
There is an underground arms trade that runs through Ireland. Lets us not forget the IRA, Sinn Féin, etc.
You might rebut of England's more sophisticated army and of Irish drunkards who don't really feel differently about it, but the British are quite good at one thing throughout history, a bloodbath. Don't get me wrong, I could care less what the British do personally, but you'd best think otherwise that the English clandestine element would let a chain reaction like that happen after Scotland's apparent secession, no, I don't think so.
_________________
Light in the absence of eyes illuminates nothing.
Other countries that have broken up were artificially put together in the first place (Czechoslovakia,Yugoslavia) whereas Great Britain as
an island is a natural construct.
The difference is that I think that in Germany most Germans consider their ethnicity to be just German. In the UK you have English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish people. Although I think some people consider themselves just British.
Possibly,but I think the idea of separate nationalities in Britain is enhanced because we have separate international sports teams which
have come about from the way certain sports developed (in football for example,England and Scotland started their own associations but in the beginning had no other countries to play against apart from themselves).
In other countries,separate ethnicities have equally valid claims for nationhood - notably Catalonia in Spain and Bavaria in Germany.
A quote from the book,Peoples Nations and Cultures says 'Bavaria was a reluctant participant in the Prussian-led movement of German
unification in the 19th century'. The fact that it is mainly Catholic meant that it had stronger links with southern Europe than the various Protestant kingdoms and states of northern Germans.
_________________
I have lost the will to be apathetic
Other countries that have broken up were artificially put together in the first place (Czechoslovakia,Yugoslavia) whereas Great Britain as
an island is a natural construct.
The difference is that I think that in Germany most Germans consider their ethnicity to be just German. In the UK you have English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish people. Although I think some people consider themselves just British.
Possibly,but I think the idea of separate nationalities in Britain is enhanced because we have separate international sports teams which
have come about from the way certain sports developed (in football for example,England and Scotland started their own associations but in the beginning had no other countries to play against apart from themselves).
In other countries,separate ethnicities have equally valid claims for nationhood - notably Catalonia in Spain and Bavaria in Germany.
A quote from the book,Peoples Nations and Cultures says 'Bavaria was a reluctant participant in the Prussian-led movement of German
unification in the 19th century'. The fact that it is mainly Catholic meant that it had stronger links with southern Europe than the various Protestant kingdoms and states of northern Germans.
Ah, the Catholic/Protestant divide could be a reason too of course. The Kulturkampf. But in today's Germany I don't think religion plays such a large role anymore.
A similar situation existed in the Netherlands, with the north Calvinist and the south Catholic. But after WW2 these "pillars" (next to the socialist and classical liberal pillars) lost influence and people identify not as strongly as one of these groups as they used to. They used to have their own papers and radio stations, and political parties of course. Today there isn't even a Catholic party anymore.
I think that you mean "secession", not "succession".
The Spanish had a war of "succession" ( over who got to be the next king), and we Americans had a war of "secession" (over whether or not a region could break away from the rest of the country). I think that you mean the later: Scotland breaking away from the UK.
To Averick:
What the fig are you talking about? The Republic of Ireland (ie the NOT Northern part of Ireland) is nowhere near strong enough to seize anything from the United Kingdom. And the majority population of Northern Ireland are Protestant loyalist (more loyal to England than the English in England are loyal to England) and dont want to Dublin to liberate them (though the Catholic minority there might dream of that).
Thank you for correcting me, sincerely. I appreciate that you did.
I edited the title to reflect the correction.
Other countries that have broken up were artificially put together in the first place (Czechoslovakia,Yugoslavia) whereas Great Britain as
an island is a natural construct.
The difference is that I think that in Germany most Germans consider their ethnicity to be just German. In the UK you have English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish people. Although I think some people consider themselves just British.
Possibly,but I think the idea of separate nationalities in Britain is enhanced because we have separate international sports teams which
have come about from the way certain sports developed (in football for example,England and Scotland started their own associations but in the beginning had no other countries to play against apart from themselves).
In other countries,separate ethnicities have equally valid claims for nationhood - notably Catalonia in Spain and Bavaria in Germany.
A quote from the book,Peoples Nations and Cultures says 'Bavaria was a reluctant participant in the Prussian-led movement of German
unification in the 19th century'. The fact that it is mainly Catholic meant that it had stronger links with southern Europe than the various Protestant kingdoms and states of northern Germans.
Ah, the Catholic/Protestant divide could be a reason too of course. The Kulturkampf. But in today's Germany I don't think religion plays such a large role anymore.
A similar situation existed in the Netherlands, with the north Calvinist and the south Catholic. But after WW2 these "pillars" (next to the socialist and classical liberal pillars) lost influence and people identify not as strongly as one of these groups as they used to. They used to have their own papers and radio stations, and political parties of course. Today there isn't even a Catholic party anymore.
Religion still plays a part in Scotland to some extent but,as in the Netherlands and Germany,not as much as it used to.Nowadays it mainly manifests in football - Rangers are traditionally "British/Protestant" and Celtic are traditionally what their name suggests "Irish Catholic". It might be expected that the large numbers of supporters of these clubs would vote accordingly in the referendum,but I think most people are open minded and will look at the facts objectively rather than just follow tradition.
_________________
I have lost the will to be apathetic
Northern Ireland's border was originally drawn including, for military defence motives, at a time when Ireland had been strong enough to win its own secession war, 2 counties that should have gone to the south. Though it was right to stand for self-determination, it was contradictory and not right to say that though the north could opt out of Ireland the smaller pro-south parts of the north couldn't opt out of the north and reunify with Ireland. The border should have been redrawn on that basis, a cabinet paper reveals that Thatcher looked into it in the 80s, but there is always political inertia against redrawing borders and in the UN era there has been a worldwide disapproval of it on grounds of demotivating wars over them. Which causes a problem for Scotland too over our lost southern port Berwick.
I want Pluto's analysis to be right, and the likelihood that it is right keeps reasserting itself after every narrowing of the polls, but any vote is nerve racking. In the messages on the stones in the Union cairn being built at Gretna, you can see how much of a people bonding and family uniting good the long term integration together of our countries is, and how many families with be distressed by tearing a break across it.
But how many of the British unionists writing those messages will apply the same good humanitarian reasoning to our peacemaking union with a lot more countries, the EU? That's the irony with Tequila, we are on the same side on the British union and opposite sides on the European, for on my part exactly the same reasons! All the Brits living on the continent are performing the same process of integration as has bonded together socially our kingdoms that used to be in an endless futile cycle of warring. Near Gretna, Solway Moss in 1542 was the last of those head-on collisions.
But while a well integrated union is desirable to keep and a moral point favouring No, it would not prevail over the moral question of being liberal and world-uniting about borders overall and which side is being better about this. Scotland does have an oppression history of global dispersal, the clearances, and a lot of economically driven emigration on top. If the nats were as they logically should be, fervently for the cause of the diaspora and their return, and were going to provide for that where the Union was not, then a secession and breaching of the integrated union to get that justice would be right. This shows why, to keep the moral position safely in their favour, unions have to be on a basis of being just as nice to countries outside them and continuing of building peacemaking union in all its forms, and not on the basis of a nationalism for the union state that is hostile to outsiders. Patriotism, hence to back any state for its own sake no matter what it does, has always been silly and a way for rulers to get nasty policies supported. So my position has always been to vote for belonging and inclusion in that national community, the most liberal prospect on borders with the moral priority of our own families and dispersed nation being included in their homeland.
The SNP have always shown such lack of interest in the diaspora as a cause that it has always been cause to distrust them on it and suspect they were avoiding the subject electorally because it's pro-immigration. However, in the earlier part of this campaign they claimed to be the more pro-immigration side, spun their campaign that way, and pro-EU while the fear of England wanting to leave the EU added to that picture and Britain's present racism crisis had nothing moral to offer. So I was leaning to voting Yes, with the caution of it being subject to seeing the details of Yes's provision for the diaspora and that if they were restrictive enough to turn out worse than we would get with No I would change side. I knew that English friends were unhappy at the felt social mood of Scot nationalism but it would not trump a breakthrough obtained from the state. Those friends' fears have been proved right overwhelmingly by the character of nat movement that has emerged now. In defending in humanitarian conscience that it had to be right to look at on its merits what the nats offered, it is quite chilling how necessary it was to check on its details and not take spin on trust. For when the details came out, I unearthed that the nats' spin was a total deceit and confidence trick, that they have lured a lot of folks desperate for a new dream to swallow without scrutiny. I changed side more quickly totally lurchingly and angrily than I ever have on anything, and utterly conceding the rightness of the folks who had always been on the other side by instinct.
The nats are worse than the British racism and have clearly calculated long ahead that the selfish anti-outsider bigoted version of nat was the voter they were going for, vindicating the socially experienced fears of aforementioned English friends. It's not just about being less generous it's about actively dividing families and wanting to take away what we already have. The spin they have made up called "civic nationalism" is in fact a line of only caring for the population who already chance to live here and saying the whole project is only for them and in their interest. Saying it's good because it's not ethnic turns out to be a device for dividing and betraying families and including the entire Scottish expat community in the outside world to be rejected. Their plan for citizenship does not give it unrefusably by inheritance from a parent. Scots who were born in rUK and can't arrange to be resident here at the date of indy, who in the Union are totally free to move home, will at the nats' hands find their own country wielding a power of choice to reject them. Okay among the many optimistic claims they make assuming the rest of the world will do everything that suits them, they claim the common travel area will survive. But there are many reasons why it easily might not. Then citizenship will mean who can live here. Even if the border does stay open, one of the consequences of UKIP and the British racist crisis is the loss of the EU principle of outsiders having full citizenship rights when in need when living in other countries. For citizenship not to be necessarily inheritable will divide families and prevent them from supporting each other in time of need, both medical need and poverty and against welfare cuts. At the same time inheritance or your own pre-existing British citizenship (this is nationalism?! !) will be one of the terms for citizenship, ratting on a former SNP pledge of it for everyone born in Scotland, and strings to do with this will be put on future-born kids too. It all seems designed to sow a separation the lives of the insider population from the outside, deliberately engineering the opposite of the Union's integration.
Sturgeon threatened something worse than UKIP, actually to strip of residency and throw out the EU nationals already here if we get our likely troubles with rejoining the EU. I had needed to check my conscience with a Polish friend before becoming No, but now No is the vote to protect Polish friends. The "cybernat" bullying online and every time someone backs No publicly, is for following nationalism blindly uncritically, nat crowd psychology at its historical worst when it's anti-outsider, and there is a very unwelcome comparison with recent Irish history from the wide feeling of intimidation there is stopping folks displaying No posters and badges, so that it's mostly Yes posters you see in windows though in small enough numbers to match their thankful trailing in the polls. It will be a star in our history for a silent majority to vote against this and for the friendly good of a well mingled well integrated union whose value is so well shown now. Not only am I voting No I am doing my own campaign called "no to a new clearances" and I have petitioned the EU, made possible you see by us being in it, against accepting a new state as validly mandated if voters did not know of all these horrors.
Similar Topics | |
---|---|
Trump - Bad things will happen if Jews don’t vote for him |
21 Sep 2024, 6:41 am |