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Why is sex crime so special?

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Ectryon
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26 Aug 2014, 1:22 pm

MrGrumpy wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
there is actually little or no middle ground between harmless flirting and unwanted sexual advances - or outright sexual assault

I disagree - there is a huge amount of middle ground between the areas of human behaviour which you describe.


Nope. You can lean in close and whisper something into a girl's ear and this can be either a wanted or unwanted advance. You can take a chance and kiss a random girl in a club and this can constitute sexual assault or a welcome surprise. A sexual comment can be perceived in either light also.What middle ground there is has to be interpreted with great skill.



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26 Aug 2014, 1:39 pm

Ectryon wrote:
MrGrumpy wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
there is actually little or no middle ground between harmless flirting and unwanted sexual advances - or outright sexual assault

I disagree - there is a huge amount of middle ground between the areas of human behaviour which you describe.


Nope. You can lean in close and whisper something into a girl's ear and this can be either a wanted or unwanted advance. You can take a chance and kiss a random girl in a club and this can constitute sexual assault or a welcome surprise. A sexual comment can be perceived in either light also.What middle ground there is has to be interpreted with great skill.


and all that "middle ground" grey area magically disappears if you simply make sure a woman wants you to kiss her or make sexual advances by asking first. consent is where the "rules" and laws are not unclear or ambiguous at all--sexual assault and rape happens when you don't ask and don't get consent and just take what you want and make assumptions. it's not vague at all, it's very easy to understand for anyone who isn't a sexual predator and is capable of seeing members of the opposite gender as actual human beings with agency and not walking life support systems for sexual organs. it's only complicated if you don't believe in respecting people's boundaries and consent is a meaningless word to you. for someone who finds it that complicated, i would suggest not bothering anyone else sexually ever to avoid jail time, and to please leave those of us who know how to treat our fellow human beings with respect alone.

this thread and the fact that there are still guys out there that think this way makes me want to puke.



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26 Aug 2014, 1:52 pm

Ectryon wrote:
MrGrumpy wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
there is actually little or no middle ground between harmless flirting and unwanted sexual advances - or outright sexual assault

I disagree - there is a huge amount of middle ground between the areas of human behaviour which you describe.


Nope. You can lean in close and whisper something into a girl's ear and this can be either a wanted or unwanted advance. You can take a chance and kiss a random girl in a club and this can constitute sexual assault or a welcome surprise. A sexual comment can be perceived in either light also.What middle ground there is has to be interpreted with great skill.

I think we are in total agreement.


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Ectryon
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26 Aug 2014, 1:58 pm

starvingartist wrote:
Ectryon wrote:
MrGrumpy wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
there is actually little or no middle ground between harmless flirting and unwanted sexual advances - or outright sexual assault

I disagree - there is a huge amount of middle ground between the areas of human behaviour which you describe.


Nope. You can lean in close and whisper something into a girl's ear and this can be either a wanted or unwanted advance. You can take a chance and kiss a random girl in a club and this can constitute sexual assault or a welcome surprise. A sexual comment can be perceived in either light also.What middle ground there is has to be interpreted with great skill.


and all that "middle ground" grey area magically disappears if you simply make sure a woman wants you to kiss her or make sexual advances by asking first. consent is where the "rules" and laws are not unclear or ambiguous at all--sexual assault and rape happens when you don't ask and don't get consent and just take what you want and make assumptions. it's not vague at all, it's very easy to understand for anyone who isn't a sexual predator and is capable of seeing members of the opposite gender as actual human beings with agency and not walking life support systems for sexual organs. it's only complicated if you don't believe in respecting people's boundaries and consent is a meaningless word to you. for someone who finds it that complicated, i would suggest not bothering anyone else sexually ever to avoid jail time, and to please leave those of us who know how to treat our fellow human beings with respect alone.

this thread and the fact that there are still guys out there that think this way makes me want to puke.


Pheeeew that's a bit strong im thinking of a scenario where a guy thinks that a girl is into him and takes a chance or vice versa. you're expected to read these signs and back off if you're getting negative signals. I dont understand how that's chauvinistic :?

The point is that a man might do any of the things I mentioned if he's certain the girl will take it well but he cant very well ask beforehand because the romantic "mood" depends on a certain spontaneity. The kissing a random girl in a club was a poorly chosen example. It does happen but is generally in an environment that's practically orgiastic and where hard drugs are involved



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26 Aug 2014, 1:59 pm

Ectryon wrote:
MrGrumpy wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
there is actually little or no middle ground between harmless flirting and unwanted sexual advances - or outright sexual assault

I disagree - there is a huge amount of middle ground between the areas of human behaviour which you describe.


Nope. You can lean in close and whisper something into a girl's ear and this can be either a wanted or unwanted advance. You can take a chance and kiss a random girl in a club and this can constitute sexual assault or a welcome surprise. A sexual comment can be perceived in either light also.What middle ground there is has to be interpreted with great skill.


Thank you.


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Ectryon
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26 Aug 2014, 2:05 pm

Quote:
I think we are in total agreement


EDIT:Im not sure we are respectfully. My example shows that consent is necessary to avoid misunderstandings. I previously stated that consent is paramount. My post may also show that consent has to be inferred but that's a seperate issue. In terms of this debate any sexual intent can be unwanted or wanted and the way to be certain is to ensure that consent has been given. For an NT this is often a telepathic exchange almost but for us its probably better to just ask

I will retract the kiss example though. I think I saw that on tv when I was a teen and it somehow stuck with me and was registered as "things you can do if you're a Cassanova". I will say again however that there are loads of times during a romantic moment (or moment you perceive to be romantic) where saying "May I please kiss you" is just bloody ridiculous. Consent has to be interpreted there.



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26 Aug 2014, 3:04 pm

Ectryon wrote:
Quote:
I think we are in total agreement


EDIT:Im not sure we are respectfully. My example shows that consent is necessary to avoid misunderstandings. I previously stated that consent is paramount. My post may also show that consent has to be inferred but that's a seperate issue. In terms of this debate any sexual intent can be unwanted or wanted and the way to be certain is to ensure that consent has been given. For an NT this is often a telepathic exchange almost but for us its probably better to just ask

I will retract the kiss example though. I think I saw that on tv when I was a teen and it somehow stuck with me and was registered as "things you can do if you're a Cassanova". I will say again however that there are loads of times during a romantic moment (or moment you perceive to be romantic) where saying "May I please kiss you" is just bloody ridiculous. Consent has to be interpreted there.

I think we are in total agreement


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26 Aug 2014, 5:37 pm

Since no-one else has seen fit to offer an answer to my original question, I thought I would offer some thoughts of my own...

Sex Crimes are Special because -

1. They generate heated debate, because there is no clear distinction between a sexual advance and a sexual assault
2. Putative victims are guaranteed anonymity whilst putative offenders are exposed to the glare of the media from the start
3. Convicted sex offenders are listed on a special register which does not include other crimes against 'the person'
4. The police seem to be engaged in an active trawl for historic sex offenders, to the exclusion of other historic crimes
5. The police trawl seems to fail to net members of the establishment whilst pulling in many show business celebrities

I am totally gutted by the suffering of women, but evolution is a gradual process. Eventually, no doubt, the reproduction of the species will no longer depend upon something as disgusting as sexual intercourse. I'm glad that I will be long gone before that day arrives...


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26 Aug 2014, 5:43 pm

MrGrumpy wrote:
Since no-one else has seen fit to offer an answer to my original question, I thought I would offer some thoughts of my own...

Sex Crimes are Special because -

1. They generate heated debate, because there is no clear distinction between a sexual advance and a sexual assault
2. Putative victims are guaranteed anonymity whilst putative offenders are exposed to the glare of the media from the start
3. Convicted sex offenders are listed on a special register which does not include other crimes against 'the person'
4. The police seem to be engaged in an active trawl for historic sex offenders, to the exclusion of other historic crimes
5. The police trawl seems to fail to net members of the establishment whilst pulling in many show business celebrities

I am totally gutted by the suffering of women, but evolution is a gradual process. Eventually, no doubt, the reproduction of the species will no longer depend upon something as disgusting as sexual intercourse. I'm glad that I will be long gone before that day arrives...


If celebrities are netted more often than high powered business or political leaders, it's only because celebrities have more light on them. It's no different than celebrities being exposed for substance abuse problems, or making insane political or racial statements by both the tabloid press and the mainstream media. Business people and politicians have more in common with ordinary people in that our private lives are largely private.
And who ever said sexual intercourse was disgusting? :?


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26 Aug 2014, 5:56 pm

MrGrumpy wrote:
...there is no clear distinction between a sexual advance and a sexual assault...


this is patently false: there is in fact a very clear distinction between a sexual advance and a sexual assault, and that distinction is the presence or absence of consent.

children cannot consent because they are not psychologically capable of considering and weighing the options of adult sexual interaction, therefore sex with kids=sexual assault/abuse in the form of pedophilia.

animals cannot give informed consent because they are not sentient, therefore sex with animals=sexual assault/abuse.

a person visibly impaired by alcohol or drugs (can't walk without stumbling, slurring speech, unconscious, etc.) cannot consent because they are intoxicated and not able to reason and weigh decisions properly, therefore sex with drunk/drugged people=sexual assault/abuse.

touching anyone in a sexual manner (kissing, petting, grabbing ass, etc) or forcing sex on them without first obtaining active consent is sexual abuse/assault.

it's really not that complicated as some people make it out to be.



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26 Aug 2014, 6:19 pm

However, it?s often said?even by women?that asking is a complete turnoff, which marks you as a lesser male because you?re not confident enough, and that you must have the courage to kiss a woman knowing she can?perhaps publicly?reject you, slap you, get someone to step in and beat the s**t out of you, charge you with sexual assault ?. It?s sort of implied that, if you don?t accept this risk, you don?t deserve a chance with her.


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26 Aug 2014, 6:30 pm

MrGrumpy wrote:
Since no-one else has seen fit to offer an answer to my original question, I thought I would offer some thoughts of my own...

Sex Crimes are Special because -

.


How f*****g arrogant can you be. I and many others have giving considered responses to your question. But it seems you are not seeking a reason why we abhor sexual crimes, judging by your populist misogynistic list, you should have asked the question "give examples of why investigations of sexual assault are unreasonable"

As someone has already pointed out the, more you say the less interesting you become.


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26 Aug 2014, 6:41 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
And who ever said sexual intercourse was disgusting? :?


He is being sarcastic, because he cannot differentiate between consensual sexual intercourse and sexual assault he see's the existence of sexual crime legislation as an assault against natural urges and therefore we must subconsciously find sexual intercourse abhorrent.


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26 Aug 2014, 7:24 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
If celebrities are netted more often than high powered business or political leaders, it's only because celebrities have more light on them. It's no different than celebrities being exposed for substance abuse problems, or making insane political or racial statements by both the tabloid press and the mainstream media. Business people and politicians have more in common with ordinary people in that our private lives are largely private.
And who ever said sexual intercourse was disgusting? :?

I really don't understand your point - should celebrities be subjected to a different set of rules from the rest of us? Why are the police not trawling for historic crimes of substance abuse and racial discrimination?

Maybe I should replace the the word 'disgusting' with the word 'inconvenient'


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26 Aug 2014, 11:11 pm

MrGrumpy wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
If celebrities are netted more often than high powered business or political leaders, it's only because celebrities have more light on them. It's no different than celebrities being exposed for substance abuse problems, or making insane political or racial statements by both the tabloid press and the mainstream media. Business people and politicians have more in common with ordinary people in that our private lives are largely private.
And who ever said sexual intercourse was disgusting? :?

I really don't understand your point - should celebrities be subjected to a different set of rules from the rest of us? Why are the police not trawling for historic crimes of substance abuse and racial discrimination?

Maybe I should replace the the word 'disgusting' with the word 'inconvenient'


I recall you had brought this subject of celebrities being prosecuted for sexual offenses in the past. If I can make my point any clearer, celebrities, because of the nature of their professions, naturally get more public scrutiny, and thus are more likely to get caught for sexual offenses than others are - - if they misbehave. Then again, there are countless more anonymous ordinary people who get arrested for the same sort of crimes who never get the same kind of media scrutiny. It's news when a celebrity gets caught doing something bad.


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26 Aug 2014, 11:14 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
And who ever said sexual intercourse was disgusting? :?


He is being sarcastic, because he cannot differentiate between consensual sexual intercourse and sexual assault he see's the existence of sexual crime legislation as an assault against natural urges and therefore we must subconsciously find sexual intercourse abhorrent.


That's probably true - but as an Aspie, the obvious goes over my head. :lol:


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