Can a state work with religion as the ruler?

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Jono
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10 Dec 2014, 10:11 am

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
Most of the laws in the U.S. are based on the Ten Commandments, …


No they're not. In fact most laws in most secular countries are not based on the Ten Commandments. Would you like to go through them?

What about idol worship and believing in multiple gods? - Freedom of religion.

Working on the sabbath day? - Many people work on a Sunday and it's not against the law.

In fact, only about 3 of the 10 commandments can actually be considered criminal if violated, namely the ones relating to murder, theft and "bearing false witness" (could be considered perjury when relating to matters of a criminal nature). The other 7 are not would not be considered criminal in todays society.



Grommit
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10 Dec 2014, 10:15 am

I like the part about Adam and Eve but I usually get to gods creation and that was that..... And that usually exceeds my imagination. I can't even fathom how god just made the universe and everything inside it just like that. Although I took the scientific path and I think it wraps up well with the sun being our creator. I have heard that the bible is meant to be one of the most horrific horror books on sale today.



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10 Dec 2014, 10:24 am

If we can figure out how to build a time machine we might be able to go back in time, stop Adam from eating the apple from the tree and stop this whole mess.



kraftiekortie
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10 Dec 2014, 10:28 am

Adam and Eve is an allegorical story. I doubt it if it was meant to be taken literally at the time it was written.



Grommit
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10 Dec 2014, 10:37 am

I think it's about time we wrote the literal bible :D



trollcatman
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10 Dec 2014, 10:57 am

Grommit wrote:
If we can figure out how to build a time machine we might be able to go back in time, stop Adam from eating the apple from the tree and stop this whole mess.


The type of fruit isn't specified in the Bible :D



aghogday
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10 Dec 2014, 11:11 am

As much as I abhor religious run states, per RESTRICTION OF NATURAL HUMAN FREEDOMS, THEY ARE run like this in some Muslim dominated countries, AND they do work for basic survival.

The thing is, 'we' folks in the US are looking at this from the perspective of an environment that has overall been bountiful in resources for subsistence well before the American Indians found a place to live here.

The desert is a different way of life.

For instance without water, it does not take long for humans to die, and even water per historical past could be a hard treasure to find in desert ways of life that of course settled around some water source as nomads in pastoral way of life.

In some ways this applies to Old Testament ways of life too, where that is the dominant way of religious run state.

Additionally, land that is fertile enough to support life is in much fewer square miles than North America, so territorial RIGHTS ARE A WAY OF SURVIVAL more so too, as there are fewer options than in North America.

Religion was used as a method to secure economic subsistence for the family unit, per dowries that still are used to assure that an economically secure mate is provided for survival.

Marriage still, as it PRACTICALLY works today in the United States, is for assurance of subsistence more than THE ideal of Romantic Love forever and ever, like a fairy tale. With the more nomadic way of the nuclear family unit in the U.S., it is actually becoming a greater issue for survival than times of past where the extended family village unit, raised the child together.

And yes, it works well enough for the dominant demographic of indigenous heterosexual males, IN RELIGIOUS RUN STATES, overall, as they have control over others outside of their dominant demographic.

But it is a harsh way of life, to be controlled without basic human nature freedoms, even for the males, who must repress much of their human nature to survive, per ways of monogamy and repression of other natural human propensities.

The ideal of the separation of church and state was a noble one in the United States, but truly there are elements of the dominate Christian religion that have seeded it much heavier in the past per subjugation of control over less dominate demographics before civil rights.

Finally we are getting there to real separation of church and state as the Legislative, Executive, and Judicial branches of government work to bring greater civil rights and other freedoms of an enlightened truly FREE SOCIETY TO FRUITION.

FREEDOM, TRUE HUMAN FREEDOM for those that practice IT ALL THE WAY IN THE UNITED STATES, IS TRULY INTOXICATING IN animal homeostasis, LIKE our wild 'friends' that live in balance in NATURE WITHOUT CULTURE DRAGGING THEM DOWN IN CHAINS OF Subjugation, Oppression, and Repression of Animal Nature.

And yes, WE CAN AND DO FOR THOSE WHO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT, HAVE THE BEST of both worlds of the comforts of culture and our innate freedom of human nature.

Freedom of Information through Information Technology in our new growing global Information AGE, is bringing the news of this potential intoxication of BALANCE for a whole society and not just a few, to many corners of the world that had never heard or seen NEWS about this kind of freedom before.

But the roadblock still can be the environmental resources that are available for consumption per geography of these people whose freedoms are still heavily restricted by religious run states.

The only way that is going to ever happen is for further GLOBAL SHARING OF THE WEALTH THAT DOES COME FROM TRULY CREATIVE AND PRODUCTIVE CITIZENRY THAT ARE ABLE TO PRACTICE THEIR FULLER HUMAN FREEDOMS IN REAL LIFE WAYS OF OPEN AND BALANCED FREE MARKET CAPITALISM AND SOCIAL WELFARE STATE RUN WAYS.

THESE ARE THE WAYS OF THE SO-CALLED 'LIBERALS' THAT THE SO-CALLED FUNDAMENTALIST 'CONSERVATIVES' CRY WOLF ABOUT.

BUT TRULY THEY ARE THE WAYS TO GLOBAL FREEDOM AND SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

WE STILL HAVE FUNDAMENTALIST RELIGIOUS ORIENTED STATE RUNNING FOLKS, IN THE UNITED STATES; THEY JUST AREN'T WEARING THE ATTIRE OF DESERT OVERLORDS.

AND THEY STILL WORK AS HARD AS THEY CAN TO BE PUT THE REAL STAKE OF DEATH IN FREEDOM.

'WE' SO-CALLED 'LIBERALS' WILL HAVE NONE OF THAT.

'WE' CHERISH ALL HUMAN FREEDOMS AND FIGHT FOR THEM IN OUR OWN WAYS WITH THE TRUE GOD OF MOTHER NATURE TRUE NOT A FAKE ANTHROPOMORPHIC GOD THAT RULES OVER THE LESSER PERCEIVED OF HUMANITY.

ANY THAT'S MY 'TWO' 'SENSE'. ;)

THE MORE TRUE NATURAL HUMAN FREEDOMS THAT ARE TAKEN AWAY THE MORE CONSERVATIVE THE STATE IS.

THE MORE TRUE NATURAL HUMAN FREEDOMS THAT ARE ALLOWED TO THE POPULACE THE MORE LIBERAL THE STATE IS.

ALL RELIGIOUS RUN STATES ARE CONSERVATIVE.

BUT THE TRUE RELIGION OF MOTHER NATURE TRUE, IS JUST FREEDOM, SO I'LL GO WITH HER, MY TRUE LIBERAL, BIGGEST MOTHER. ;)

YES, Mother Nature TRUE, IS A VERY LIBERAL 'CHICK' OR 'COW'. ;)


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sartresue
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10 Dec 2014, 11:20 am

United State topic

The notion of the "state" is a political amalgamation (usually achieved by war, subjugation, treaties or combinations of these situations) of various social subunits promising a more beneficial life by a powerful leader. Religion also became more centralized as a result, and more tyrannical as well. Of course, this was all very dysfunctional the more complex it became, due to greed/corruption. This dysfunctionality was recognized by insightful persons at some point but in some countries separation of church and state was rejected, or left to local expediency (as in the Middle East, when it suited rulers, or in various US states, where it became entangled in local politics). State or government sanctioned religion is obviously just as dangerous as tribal based belief systems, as they degenerate into nastiness on the one hand, and on the other hand into terror. Disaster all around for any historically disenfranchised persons/groups. :evil:


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white_as_snow
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17 Dec 2014, 7:58 pm

Fnord wrote:
Which part of the New Testament? The part that says women should remain silent in the Temple? The part that says a woman caught in adultery must be stoned to death (but not the man she is having adulterous sex with)? The part where escaped slaves are sent back to their masters? The part where all that it takes to convict a person of a crime is for two men to say that the person committed the crime, regardless of any evidence to the contrary? The part where those who speak out against the established religious order are either crucified or stoned to death?

The Christian and Islamic religions were established by men to keep men in power and to keep women and minorities oppressed, enslaved, or both. This means that only men would be allowed to own property, run the government, stand in judgment over others, and decide who lives and who dies on a day-to-day basis.

If this is what you want, then why don't you just immigrate to Iran?


The things you brought up is from old testament, not new testament.

Tell me, in what countrys does christians follow the old testament with stoning etc? Its only muslims who does that.



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17 Dec 2014, 8:06 pm

No

Religion itself is an inherently emotional design, and you can't have emotions seeping into the very things that control what people can and can't do.



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17 Dec 2014, 8:10 pm

white_as_snow wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Which part of the New Testament? The part that says women should remain silent in the Temple? The part that says a woman caught in adultery must be stoned to death (but not the man she is having adulterous sex with)? The part where escaped slaves are sent back to their masters? The part where all that it takes to convict a person of a crime is for two men to say that the person committed the crime, regardless of any evidence to the contrary? The part where those who speak out against the established religious order are either crucified or stoned to death? The Christian and Islamic religions were established by men to keep men in power and to keep women and minorities oppressed, enslaved, or both. This means that only men would be allowed to own property, run the government, stand in judgment over others, and decide who lives and who dies on a day-to-day basis. If this is what you want, then why don't you just immigrate to Iran?
The things you brought up is from old testament, not new testament.
WRONG!

The woman caught in adultery, Paul sending an escaped slave back to his master, the crucifixion of Jesus and the stoning of Stephen are all part of the New Testament.

As for episodes of Christians committing atrocities against others, look up the Salem Witch Trials, the Crusades, the Inquisition, and Jonestown. Not to forget the Irish Laundries and the rampant pedophilia among Roman Catholic priests.

Raise your eyes from that Bible once in a while and take a good look around.


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andrethemoogle
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17 Dec 2014, 9:26 pm

Even though I'm a Catholic, I think there should be a separation between religion and state. The two can align on certain issues, but it can't be a dominate factor.

Plus, freedom of religion would mean nothing if only one religion was "allowed" and apostasy was treated with death, like in Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries.



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18 Dec 2014, 9:02 pm

So the op wants a state based not upon rational, well thought out policies which take the needs of both individuals and the majority into account, no he wants a state based upon the subjective interpretation of a selection of unfounded stories, which originally came to us via oral tradition and were both the product of the current zeitgeist in their writing, and later selection to elevate them to biblical status. These stories, as has already been pointed out, make second class citizens of over half the population of the planet, and condemn anyone who has the temerity to question their validity.

Now admittedly we do not have a system in place which resembles my first example, but why, seeing that our present system is far from perfect would you harken back to a system based upon fear, subjugation, bigotry and superstition? I can only surmise that it is because taking responsibility from a rational, natural perspective is so much harder than being told what to do and how to do it by an imaginary all powerful deity.


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